India Indian Coffee House

[Joe Shearer]

What the deal with UP? Has it always been this crazy? It's like the Alabama of India.

You clearly have a marked hatred for Alabama. It is a haven of peace and contentment, next to the UP.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It’s a ridiculous law, but I don’t think I need to point this out. Next is Muslims aren’t allowed to marry.

Thanks for the reminder.

I'll pass it on to the Nut hisself, for necessary action. He's losing it, not thinking of something as simple and as obvious as this.

 

[Nilgiri]

We're more chill down south...

 

[Nilgiri]

 

[Jackdaws]

Honestly, I am fed up of the man. His economic policies have sent the economy into a tailspin while filling the coffers of Ambani and Adani.

ONGC woes: How Modi government drove India’s most profitable company under a mountain of debt

The government laid low the oil and gas explorer by compelling it to bail out the Gujarat State Petroleum Corporation and buy Hindustan Petroleum.

scroll.in

ONGC cash reserves crash to Rs 167 crore from Rs 9,511 crore in 1.5 years under Modi govt

ONGC’s cash & bank balances hit Rs 167 crore in Sept 2018, down from Rs 9,511 crore in March 2017, following the acquisition of HPCL and other govt diktats.

theprint.in

In 6 yrs of Modi govt, market cap of PSUs fell 36% — but that of BSE, Sensex almost doubled

Public sector firms and banks’ total market capitalisation was Rs 19.1 lakh crore in May 2014, but by 28 October 2020, they have lost Rs 6.9 lakh crore.

theprint.in

His domestic policies are creating fissures in society. Anyone who opposes Modi, Shah and co. is quickly labeled one or more of the following -

1. Liberandu
2. Communist
3. Maoist
4. Khalistani
5. Pakistani
6. Anti National
7. Sickular
8. Presstitude

Some good things I appreciate have been a reduction in corruption by eliminating some red tape and I appreciate his resolve to get rid of Article 370. Also, his Government did not appose the lifting of Article 377 by the SC which finally decriminalized homosexuality. Also, in Balakot he redrew the red line.

But overall, I think he has just been a disaster - even stealing mandates in states.

What do others here think of him?

 

[Nilgiri]

It will take a lot to unpack, there have been several economic reforms and initiatives too given the larger context of what ails Indian economy. This is just tiny portion of it I go through here:

Indonesian Economy News and Updates

Talking about debts, our SOE total debt actually quite worrysome to me, but at least they are using it as funds for infrastructure Development and can be used as colateral bargaining chip. The plan was to take the loan to build jalan tol then sell it to investor. Im not sure how it goes today...

defencehub.live

i.e if you look at FDI flows now (compared to end of UPA-II) and ease of doing business (that was huge part of the rut in UPA-II given the FPI flows dried up into capital market and there was no solid floorboard elsewhere to get into).

Similar things can be seen in manufacturing value added and other economic sectors structural rebound (from the 09 - 14 rut) evidenced by their production and export levels too. Its is ongoing project to make India more investment and supply chain friendly.

I like Modi's focus on things like sanitation (parameshwaran Iyer and UNICEF have spoke well on results) and public health too.

The recent agro reform push (against RSS policy on it) is expounded well by folks like Ashok Gulati and Montek Singh Ahulwalia (lest you call any of these modi toadies).

Lot of the better/good things of course need to be followed up and implemented well to be seen and judged completely with better facts (just like now there is good amount of time in rearview to judge UPA 1 and 2)

Demonetisation and consensus seeking for reforms has been pretty bad to terrible moves. There have been others too in this category (GST was mixed bag and messy).

Amit shah and lot of the bozo-thugs I disdain. Social side of things, I will get to later, BJP is pretty bad but its to be expected given their whole brand of political philosophy....this has carry over to consensus building.

I also disagree with Art 370 repeal being done well or effectively....given what needed to be done over much longer time period in Kashmir to develop it and gain trust of Kashmiri populace and then let them choose (given the initial agreement for Kashmir joining India) if they wanted a standardisation of constitution with rest of India.

I will revisit and add more details and debate over time to this thread. Maybe we can change title to a more nuanced Modi admin analysis etc. Depending how it goes (interest etc) it might get archived into indian politics thread as there is debate there already thats pretty similar.

 

[Nilgiri]

What India, Saudi, UAE look to gain from Gen. Naravane trip, a first by an Indian Army chief

General M.M. Naravane will begin a week-long trip to both countries, starting 9 December, in what is considered a sign of growth in India's ties with the Middle East.

theprint.in

New Delhi: Regular joint military exercises and training besides joint production of defence equipment are some of the goals that India, UAE and Saudi Arabia look to achieve on Army chief General M.M. Naravane’s week-long trip to the two key Middle East countries.

This is the first visit by an Indian Army chief to Saudi Arabia and the UAE and is seen as a sign of how India’s ties with the Middle East has improved over the past few years, sources in the defence and security establishment said.

During the visit from 9 to 14 December, Gen. Naravane will be meeting his counterparts and the senior military leadership of these countries.

Sources said that the visit was scheduled for earlier but was postponed due to the Covid pandemic. The delay also affected the first bilateral Army exercise with both countries.

According to the plan, 45-member delegations from each of the UAE and Indian armies were set to travel to the other country for similar military exercises.

(More at link)

 

[Jackdaws]

It will take a lot to unpack, there have been several economic reforms and initiatives too given the larger context of what ails Indian economy. This is just tiny portion of it I go through here:

Indonesian Economy News and Updates

Talking about debts, our SOE total debt actually quite worrysome to me, but at least they are using it as funds for infrastructure Development and can be used as colateral bargaining chip. The plan was to take the loan to build jalan tol then sell it to investor. Im not sure how it goes today...

defencehub.live

i.e if you look at FDI flows now (compared to end of UPA-II) and ease of doing business (that was huge part of the rut in UPA-II given the FPI flows dried up into capital market and there was no solid floorboard elsewhere to get into).

Similar things can be seen in manufacturing value added and other economic sectors structural rebound (from the 09 - 14 rut) evidenced by their production and export levels too. Its is ongoing project to make India more investment and supply chain friendly.

I like Modi's focus on things like sanitation (parameshwaran Iyer and UNICEF have spoke well on results) and public health too.

The recent agro reform push (against RSS policy on it) is expounded well by folks like Ashok Gulati and Montek Singh Ahulwalia (lest you call any of these modi toadies).

Lot of the better/good things of course need to be followed up and implemented well to be seen and judged completely with better facts (just like now there is good amount of time in rearview to judge UPA 1 and 2)

Demonetisation and consensus seeking for reforms has been pretty bad to terrible moves. There have been others too in this category (GST was mixed bag and messy).

Amit shah and lot of the bozo-thugs I disdain. Social side of things, I will get to later, BJP is pretty bad but its to be expected given their whole brand of political philosophy....this has carry over to consensus building.

I also disagree with Art 370 repeal being done well or effectively....given what needed to be done over much longer time period in Kashmir to develop it and gain trust of Kashmiri populace and then let them choose (given the initial agreement for Kashmir joining India) if they wanted a standardisation of constitution with rest of India.

I will revisit and add more details and debate over time to this thread. Maybe we can change title to a more nuanced Modi admin analysis etc. Depending how it goes (interest etc) it might get archived into indian politics thread as there is debate there already thats pretty similar.

The ease of doing business ranking was largely manipulated by looking at the metrics used for the ranking and fine tuning them in Bombay and Delhi.

World Bank Pauses Publication of its 'Doing Business' Report as it Probes

The financial institution announced that it will be auditing its data collection and review processes. It will also retrospectively correct the data of countries that had been

m.thewire.in

I agree on sanitation and public health, there has been movement in the right direction.

On Article 370, someone had to bite the bullet at some point. The sooner it was done, the better. Pakistan is a pretty much an international pariah and the next Indian Govt. might be a coalition one where coalition compulsions might prevent the repeal.

 

[Merzifonlu]

@Jackdaws I wonder why you refer to secular Indians as "Sickulars"?

 

[Jackdaws]

@Jackdaws I wonder why you refer to secular Indians as "Sickulars"?

I don't. It's the insult that Modi bhakts (fans) use for those Indians who reject their Hindutva agenda and ideology.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you. No good results can be expected from a "Modi-Mind" India. In this case, the result of the West's effort to polish India against China will be disappointing.

 

[Jackdaws]

Oh, I didn't know that. Thank you. No good results can be expected from a "Modi-Mind" India. In this case, the result of the West's effort to polish India against China will be disappointing.

The Chinese are the ones who want to be top dog in Asia. It is in India's interest to use the West - and I guess to an extent there is a confluence of interests there.

 

[Nilgiri]

The ease of doing business ranking was largely manipulated by looking at the metrics used for the ranking and fine tuning them in Bombay and Delhi.

Not really, it was World Bank side own methodology change. They generally always look at only the 2 biggest cities for every country in the world (or just one city)....given these are normally where the main capital inflows are (given presence of BSE and NSE in india case).

There is of course larger debate on how good or relevant the world bank ease of doing business is (there is argument both ways )...but it is fair enough to see where India lies w.r.t the world on it, and its been getting better....just like other indices like logistics performance index too.

Macro trend wise related to this stuff (out of realm for a govt to solely measure, as its vetted by foreign party side too):

UNCTADstat - General Profile: India

Overview of key economic statistics. The statistical themes covered are: International trade, economic trends, foreign direct investment, external financial resources, population and labor force, information economy and maritime transport.

unctadstat.unctad.org

FDI flow hit as low as 24 billion in 2012 under UPA-2. (marking the sustained rut after 2008 when it peaked at around 40 billion in UPA time).

Now FDI is 50 billion a year and growing again rather than being in a rut.

Total exports as well:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

You can clearly see the cost of the UPA 2 era ....just look at total exports between 2011 and 2015.

This is what the Modi admin inherited and to its credit has gone some way in addressing and fixing.

FDI for example continue to be holding at the overall trend (right now in this financial year) even with the corona-crisis in world:

India receives highest ever FDI in Apr-Aug FY21: Government

“FDI equity inflow received during FY21 (April to August, 2020) is $27.1 billion. It is also the highest ever for first five months of a financial year,” the ministry said.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

This would not be the case if ease of doing business did not improve substantially (whatever the World Bank index correlation/ranking is).

This will also help total export level to grow and not enter a 4 year long rut like UPA-2 did from the 08 situation and reform stasis and paralysis (that too under economist like MMS).

Now this does not excuse all the mistakes and goof ups by Modi govt on things like demonetisation and their brand of politics having its toll on the economy too (w.r.t making consensus + selling reform to all broad interests in the country). That will be topic for later.

 

[Nilgiri]

On Article 370, someone had to bite the bullet at some point. The sooner it was done, the better. Pakistan is a pretty much an international pariah and the next Indian Govt. might be a coalition one where coalition compulsions might prevent the repeal.

I don't like it man (I had same gut instinct like yours initially), ever since @Joe Shearer pointed me to a brilliant professor/lawyer point by point dissection of it. i.e there were already clauses in Kashmir constitution to handle all manner of issues (equivalent to or sometimes even better and in more detail/optimisation than Indian constitution does). I waited patiently long enough for good counter by BJP side, none ever came that I could find.

The whole thing falls apart to me given Kashmir joined Indian union with explicit promise of Art. 370 (i.e JnK maintains its own constitution for the affairs delegated to its internal control)....

The state constituent assembly is not even there (dissolved since some year in the 50s) and its required to be there to give consent for repeal of Art. 370 is what my last understanding on the issue is (and Indian supreme court agreed thats the case just some years ago).

Or at least there need be some initial amendment transferring that process for repeal/abrogation to the kashmir legislative assembly to take on that consent role from their side or something like that....an intermediary step so JnK public have their represenatives to ok the matter as was the clear intent originally in Art. 370.

Again I defer to @Joe Shearer , he is probably the expert on this matter.

This repeal/abrogation was a typical bullying move to me...and the big damage has now been done, on top of the damage already done. I am not too optimistic on relations developing well between Kashmiris and rest of country like could have been done if simply you leave as is and improve bridge building and trust building in places it should be first....that is long term process.

It does not sit well with me because again I have studied such things like the federal govt structure in US, and the huge amount of rights they put into each state (if you look how US formed and expanded).

Or one can look at the constituent countries of the larger country that is the UK....the formation process (and thus legal ability to form separate parliaments and hold referendum etc) is very important.

To me JnK integration into India is similarly unique and should have been respected...because of that formation process of Indian union uniquely in case of JnK here (compared to rest of Indian union).

 

[Joe Shearer]

I don't like it man (I had same gut instinct like yours initially), ever since @Joe Shearer pointed me to a brilliant professor/lawyer point by point dissection of it. i.e there were already clauses in Kashmir constitution to handle all manner of issues (equivalent to or sometimes even better and in more detail/optimisation than Indian constitution does). I waited patiently long enough for good counter by BJP side, none ever came that I could find.

The whole thing falls apart to me given Kashmir joined Indian union with explicit promise of Art. 370 (i.e JnK maintains its own constitution for the affairs delegated to its internal control)....

The state constituent assembly is not even there (dissolved since some year in the 50s) and its required to be there to give consent for repeal of Art. 370 is what my last understanding on the issue is (and Indian supreme court agreed thats the case just some years ago).

Or at least there need be some initial amendment transferring that process for repeal/abrogation to the kashmir legislative assembly to take on that consent role from their side or something like that....an intermediary step so JnK public have their represenatives to ok the matter as was the clear intent originally in Art. 370.

Again I defer to @Joe Shearer , he is probably the expert on this matter.

This repeal/abrogation was a typical bullying move to me...and the big damage has now been done, on top of the damage already done. I am not too optimistic on relations developing well between Kashmiris and rest of country like could have been done if simply you leave as is and improve bridge building and trust building in places it should be first....that is long term process.

It does not sit well with me because again I have studied such things like the federal govt structure in US, and the huge amount of rights they put into each state (if you look how US formed and expanded).

Or one can look at the constituent countries of the larger country that is the UK....the formation process (and thus legal ability to form separate parliaments and hold referendum etc) is very important.

To me JnK integration into India is similarly unique and should have been respected...because of that formation process of Indian union uniquely in case of JnK here (compared to rest of Indian union).

If there had been a legitimate way to abolish 370, I'd have been standing placard in hand at the picket lines in front of Parliament urging it. My objection is to the way they did it, nefarious, dodgy and through a weird legislative bootstrapping that has a twisted, convoluted logic associated with the worst excesses of a particular type of reasoning associated with a particular type of eminent intellect in south Asia.

Even today, I venture to state that given an enlightened approach, it will take ten years, no more, to bring the Vale completely into the fold of the greater Indian community, and make them, at worst, as 'ornery' and cantankerous as Bengalis and Malayalis, and nothing more. I am VERY sure of this; the clue to it all being the realisation that the Kashmiri man in the street - and the woman at home - is essentially looking for self-respect and the ability to lead a life of dignity, as a full equal citizen, with no daily harassment by goons in uniform. It has to be admitted that there is an unpleasant layer of religiosity that has to be dealt with, but it has to be dealt with by progressive methods, not by revulsion and a shrinking away, and by using the modernising element in contemporary life, not by numbers of uniformed censors on the streets.

 

[Jackdaws]

I don't like it man (I had same gut instinct like yours initially), ever since @Joe Shearer pointed me to a brilliant professor/lawyer point by point dissection of it. i.e there were already clauses in Kashmir constitution to handle all manner of issues (equivalent to or sometimes even better and in more detail/optimisation than Indian constitution does). I waited patiently long enough for good counter by BJP side, none ever came that I could find.

The whole thing falls apart to me given Kashmir joined Indian union with explicit promise of Art. 370 (i.e JnK maintains its own constitution for the affairs delegated to its internal control)....

The state constituent assembly is not even there (dissolved since some year in the 50s) and its required to be there to give consent for repeal of Art. 370 is what my last understanding on the issue is (and Indian supreme court agreed thats the case just some years ago).

Or at least there need be some initial amendment transferring that process for repeal/abrogation to the kashmir legislative assembly to take on that consent role from their side or something like that....an intermediary step so JnK public have their represenatives to ok the matter as was the clear intent originally in Art. 370.

Again I defer to @Joe Shearer , he is probably the expert on this matter.

This repeal/abrogation was a typical bullying move to me...and the big damage has now been done, on top of the damage already done. I am not too optimistic on relations developing well between Kashmiris and rest of country like could have been done if simply you leave as is and improve bridge building and trust building in places it should be first....that is long term process.

It does not sit well with me because again I have studied such things like the federal govt structure in US, and the huge amount of rights they put into each state (if you look how US formed and expanded).

Or one can look at the constituent countries of the larger country that is the UK....the formation process (and thus legal ability to form separate parliaments and hold referendum etc) is very important.

To me JnK integration into India is similarly unique and should have been respected...because of that formation process of Indian union uniquely in case of JnK here (compared to rest of Indian union).

Oh, that is entirely correct. I was in the process of acquiring a law degree (which I did) when this happened - so had lots of spirited debates with professors and students in law college.

Legally, the repeal is on shaky ground.

But as it often happens, without precedence and gauging popular mood - an SC bench will not pass judgment for a long time.

 

[Jackdaws]

The design of a mosque and a hospital to be built on a five-acre land in Ayodhya's Dhannipur village allocated by the Supreme Court in the Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid case was unveiled at the Indo-Islamic Cultural Foundation office in Lucknow.

The Uttar Pradesh State Sunni Central Waqf Board had formed the trust, Indo-Islamic Cultural Foundation, to construct the mosque and other utilities on the plot.

Prof SM Akhtar of Jamia Millia Islamia, who joined the programme through video conferencing, displayed the designs of the mosque and the 200-bed hospital that will come up at the site.

A community kitchen and a modern library will also be set up in the complex.


The village chosen for the 'Babri Masjid'
"The design of the mosque has been prepared using modern technology, and it will be egg-shaped without any dome. The two-storeyed mosque will not have any minaret. Solar power will be installed in the mosque, and around 2,000 people will be able to offer 'namaaz' at the same time," he said.

The hospital will provide state-of-art facilities, much needed in the surrounding population, with a focus on the needs of the children who are suffering from malnourishment and expectant mothers, the IICF said in a statement here.

The building structure will also house the trust office and publication house focusing on research and a publication house of Indo Islamic Cultural-Literature Studies.

"The construction work of the mosque was scheduled to begin from January 26, but in this period getting the map approved seems to be difficult, hence the construction is likely to begin from August 15," Athar Husain, secretary of Indo-Islamic Cultural Foundation, told reporters.

Asked whether the Uttar Pradesh chief minister will be invited for the foundation laying programme, Hussain said that as per Islamic traditions, no big function is organised while laying the foundation stone of a mosque.

"After the hospital mosque is constructed, prominent people of the country and the state will be invited," he said.

To a question on the name of the proposed mosque, Hussain said, "The mosque will not be named after any king or nawab. Personally, I have suggested that the mosque be named as Dhannipur Masjid."

He also said that the work on the mosque will begin soon. "The mosque will be eco-friendly, and plants from across the world will be planted. The hospital will be a different building, which will a ground floor plus four floors," he said.

Prof Pushpesh Pant, a consultant curator for the archives and museum at the site, said that there is a need for a good museum to showcase the joint accomplishments and struggles of the Hindu and Muslim communities in India.

After a protracted legal tussle, the Supreme Court had on November 9 last year ruled in favour of the construction of a Ram temple at the disputed site in Ayodhya, and directed the Centre to allot an alternative five-acre plot to the Sunni Waqf Board for building a new mosque at a "prominent" place in the holy town in Uttar Pradesh.

The mosque in Ayodhya was demolished on December 6, 1992 by 'kar sevaks' who claimed that an ancient Ram temple stood at the same site.

 

[Jackdaws]

Here is a video -

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1340567240849035264

 

[Nilgiri]

All news and analysis concerning India and the Gulf Arab countries (GCC).

 

[Nilgiri]

Our investment plans in India on track, Indian economy has strength to bounce back: Saudi Arabia

In Feb last year, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman announced that Saudi Arabia would invest over USD 100 billion in India in petrochemicals, refining, infrastructure, mining and manufacturing, agriculture and several other sectors.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

NEW DELHI: Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil exporter, on Sunday said its investment plans in India are on track, noting that the Indian economy has the strength to recover from the adverse impact of the coronavirus crisis.

In February last year, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman announced that Saudi Arabia would invest over USD 100 billion in India in petrochemicals, refining, infrastructure, mining and manufacturing, agriculture and several other sectors.

"Our plans to invest in India are on track and we are in discussion to prioritise investment opportunities in several sectors in both countries," Saudi Ambassador Dr Saud bin Mohammed Al Sati told PTI in an interview.

Stating that Saudi Arabia values India as a strategic partner and a close friend, Al Sati identified ongoing cooperation in areas of training, knowledge sharing and combating terrorism as key elements of the partnership in defence and security sphere.

Al Sati complimented India's measures to revive its economy in view of the impact of the pandemic and said the economic recovery of both countries will help elevate other economies in the region as well.

"The economic relief package provided by India for its most prominent sectors is commendable. As the fifth-largest global economy and the largest economy in South Asia, the Indian economy has the impetus to recover from the impact of the ongoing pandemic," he said.

(More at link)