Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

Umigami

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Assuming we still join the program by then and not stopping at block 1 only.

Continue KFX till block 3 ❌

Stopped KFX at block 1 and buy Chinese J-35 ✅
-Chinese weapon brokers, probably

If I remembered it right, in the relevant law there's no rule that explicitly said we have to join KFX till block 3, right? Future president can discontinue the program at block 1 easily.
If US still say no for next decade, even hard-core NATO fanboy still have to consider it, huh?
 

Umigami

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Better than chinese option altough it hasnt existed yet
We're talking about future. I'll rather take my chance and wait 8-10 years to get 5th gen than have to buy J35 now.

Even buying Boramae block 3 as customer (not development partner) is good enough.

I suspect we won't be able to operate stealth 5th gen in huge numbers anyway.
 

Gary

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Better than chinese option altough it hasnt existed yet
I disagree, the Chinese has a lot more expertise in fighter jet design than Turkey does. Especially when it comes to engine.
And when it comes to VLO aircraft design they had at least a decade start.
 

Lordimperator

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I disagree, the Chinese has a lot more expertise in fighter jet design than Turkey does. Especially when it comes to engine.
And when it comes to VLO aircraft design they had at least a decade start.
Specwise and technically yes, Chinese has superior tech and enormous copy machine than Turkiye. But to put your silver bullet at the hand of potential agressor in the coming decades is unwise.
 

Umigami

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But seeing Indonesia's low effort in this program I have my own questions.
Do you mean withdrawing and risk billions dollar investment?
And Jokowi himself already said we stay.
 

Umigami

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And If we're assuming this is Fighter procurement in the future, perhaps Korea and Turkiye technology already mature by then.

(I'm assuming that because for today MoD pretty much already decided on Rafale x Eagle)
 

Umigami

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For block 1. In the first place, Jokowi have no chance to discontinue the program, at least block 1, since the program has been mandated in UU.

After we're done with block 1, it can be said the UU for this program has been fulfilled and future president can discontinue the program for block 2 and 3 easily since block 2 & 3 isn't explicitly mandated in relevant UU.

Whatever. I'm just a cute bystander who will enjoy the drama with 🍿. Don't mind me. Go on.
It's okay. Buy stealth version as regular customer if the product really is interesting. Or buy other NATO interegratable 5th gen. No need to force to build them here.

Like I said earlier, we don't have capability to support 5th generation fighter in big numbers anyway.
 

Windchime

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anyway an unpopular opinion: if we can't get that F-35 because they won't sell us one, we should opt to buy Chinese one. I heard the J-35 is export oriented. Maybe some lobby here and there with Beijing ?

to kill a 5th gen you need a 5th gen. no ifs and but.
Depends on who Indonesia considers a bigger threat going forward. Is it Australia(more like AUKUS), as it has been traditionally, China, or other SEA nations?

So yeah there will be EPAWSS in our future Eagle
Not necessarily, could be DEWS as well. The latest DSCA document specifies EPAWSS for F-15ID, but that is a separate matter to congressional grants, and a lot of the times, what's included in DSCA gets rejected at the congress when talking about non-NMA countries, which Indonesia is one of.
 
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Gary

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Do you mean withdrawing and risk billions dollar investment?
No, this is just in case we don't continue joint effort for KFX (block III). Which is likely
And Jokowi himself already said we stay.
Jokowi said ? lmao. I wish everytime Jokowi "say" something we could back it up with money.

Depends on who Indonesia considers a bigger threat going forward. Is it Australia(mlre like AUKUS), as it has been traditionally, China, or other SEA nations?
It's obvious going forward that PR China will be by far the single most destabilizing country for us, followed by OZ and maybe Vietnam (due to repeated fishermen incursion).

But lets get real, in war its everyone for themselves, and we can't risk seeing China as our only threat. The US clearly saw Indonesia as what they call "strategic fence sitter". They're not going to supply us with the equipment to be a really developed fighting forces in the region. So anyone who thinks that we're going to be shoulder to shoulder with the US one every geopolitical issue are deluded. If war in the Taiwan strait were to erupt, Chinese, US and Australian planes will be criss-crossing our airspace like they own the yard. The US will not seek Indonesian permission to use our airspace and we need the tools to counter this. To kill a 5th gen you need a 5th gen too.

Currently there's only 3 countries that has 5th gen fighter already flying.
  1. USA
  2. PRC
  3. Russia
And China is the 2nd most advanced of them all, If we're prohibited to buy the very best, we must not close the option to go for 2nd best.


That is my opinion, off course we must aggressively lobby for the F-35s, but if they wont sell at least there's another option.

=====================

oh btw neutral Swiss also used Bf-109 against intruding allies and axis fighters during ww2

f83ac36bf543280982482adc0d766ad2.jpg
 

Lordimperator

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oh btw neutral Swiss also used Bf-109 against intruding allies and axis fighters during ww2
Thats irrevlevant comparison with the 5thgen.
5th gen must be connected trough the network system to push its capabilities. So...
 
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Windchime

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If war in the Taiwan strait were to erupt, Chinese, US and Australian planes will be criss-crossing our airspace like they own the yard.
If that scenario is of your primary concern, remember what the US did to Pakistan while they invaded Afghanistan : they first got the Pakistani permission to use Pakistani airspace, albeit extremely forcibly. Nonetheless, the important part is that they did get the permission first and then enter. Also, the US provided Pakistan various weapons (ie. F-16s) and financial aid for using their air space and receiving "support" for the War Against Terror. When they did actually violate Pakistani airspace, it was clear that :

a) the Pakistanis are collaborating with Al Qaeda and was helping OBL hide in their soil.

b) Killing OBL was already a huge priority for more than a decade, and any possibilities of him being informed of the US raid through his connections in Pakistan government was unacceptable.

c) It was not a full-on invasion but rather a small-scaled spec-ops with stealth helos.

Now let's think about a case in which Indonesia will be put into in case of a conflict across Taiwan strait. Will the US violate Indonesian air space first hand? Probably not. Will the Chinese? We can't say for sure but I think they probably would. I suspect that the Chinese could resort to such tactics such as launching stand-off weapons from the airspaces of SEA countries. How will the US react in such cases? They would eventually need to engage hostiles regardless of if they are in neutral air space or not.
 
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Gary

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If that scenario is of your primary concern, remember what the US did to Pakistan while they invaded Afghanistan : they first got the Pakistani permission to use Pakistani airspace, albeit extremely forcibly. Nonetheless, the important part is that they did get the permission first and then enter. Also, the US provided Pakistan various weapons (ie. F-16s) and financial aid for using their air space and receiving "support" for the War Against Terror. When they did actually violate Pakistani airspace, it was clear that :

a) the Pakistanis are collaborating with Al Qaeda and was helping OBL hide in their soil.

b) Killing OBL was already a huge priority for more than a decade, and any possibilities of him being informed of the US raid through his connections in Pakistan government was unacceptable.

c) It was not a full-on invasion but rather a small-scaled spec-ops with stealth helos.

Now let's think about a case in which Indonesia will be put into in case of a conflict across Taiwan strait. Will the US violate Indonesian air space first hand? Probably not. Will the Chinese? We can't say for sure but I think they probably would. I suspect that the Chinese could resort to such tactics such as launching stand-off weapons from the airspaces of SEA countries. How will the US react in such cases? They would eventually need to engage hostiles regardless of if they are in neutral air space or not.
Well even they (both) don't intend to violate ID airspace they WILL eventually be forced to. A large scale war over the Taiwan strait meant that the US will use every possible assets in bases in the Pacific into the fight, ranging from Alaska, Guam, Okinawa and Australia. Previously the US had demonstrated their B-2s operating from Australia, for China the frontline in the Taiwan strait should be pushed as far away as possible. That means the Chinese will go after those Australian airbases near our Southern border. Just like they'll go after US bases in Guam or Okinawa.

They could opt ballistic missiles, but there's not really much to allocate for every US+allied airbases in the entire Pacific, not in a sustainable manner. So what they'll likely doing is go after those bases with cheaper and more mass produced stand off weapons. This applies vice versa for Chinese bases in the Spratly and the South China Sea in general.


Now standoff weapons like cruise missiles are aircrafts and they will violate our airspace. Heck, I agree with you that I don't think the US and her allies will wait until cruise missile gets near and prolly penetrate our airspace and go for the kill as early as possible. In the next decade or two, where B-21 and the notional Chinese H-20 enters service. The airspace above Indonesia and Malaysia in Particular will be subjected to heavy incursions by both sides.

The US (or specifically their USAF think tanks) has made it clear that they will disregard int'l law to go after China if war brokes out.

Deep_strike_from_Every_Angle-720x450.png


Hell, fellow QUAD India's airspace will likely be violated.

Now even if Indonesia opted neutrality, escalation in war could gets out of control, ID air force will have to make a choice if they're capable enough with the current state or they must push for a 5th gen fighter.

The difference in tech between a 4th and 5th gen fighter is akin as that of propeller piston engine fighter with a jet fighter.

If the US won't sell, we will have to find our own way.
 
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