Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Kafkaesque]

This was exactly the early step we went through when we started the C-212 at the end of 70's and early of 80's. We learned from Spain's CASA first on how to mastery the modern manufacturing technology for aircraft production. Then proceed on technology integration and co-development of CN-235, and so on, until the indigenous N-250 and N-2130 program was that close to be materialized. Unfortunately, the 1998 monetary crisis wiped out the nation's dream.
That means it's fine to learn how to manufacture jet fighter airframe as the starting point. But, don't forget all the next steps in a long run with continuous increment of learning curve and technological mastery advancement.
We should not forget the big-picture : Indonesian indigenous jet fighter competitive to similar products worldwide.

Warisan Habibie dan Peningkatan Kapabilitas Industri Pertahanan Nasional

Warisan Habibie dan Peningkatan Kapabilitas Industri Pertahanan Nasional - Pustaka - TNI Angkatan Udara

tni-au.mil.id

Look, the way the program is doing, if there is nothing change, we will GET STUCK at the building-the-airframe part.

If we want to learn about the engine, radar, avionics etc, well the Korean are doing it. Can we learn with the Korean? No.

That's why I said, first, hopefully Prabowo / gov can get a better deal (that is we learn the engine / avionics etc - along with the Korean. If we have to pay extra, it's OK).

Or, alternatively we can take the airframe knowledge, say goodbye to Korea, and start learning on our own / asking for ToT with others.

What will happen if we don't do either of the things above?

In 2030, we will find that the fighters that we projected to be called as our "main fighters" is totally at the mercy of the Korean.

PS: Aren't we also pretty much stuck at the "building the airframe" on CN-235? I mean, yes we learn to build other airframe, but we are still ZERO / BASIC at things like engine, avionics and radar.

Of course we still need to learn about airframe (learning will never stop), but we need to move on to the other parts.

 

[Indos]

There is plan to incorporate LEN, Info Global, and other and make comprehensive road map on jet fighter technology. We need to get Government support. Mindef has agreed on that comprehensive plan in principal.

This info need more publicity in newer page....

 

[Madokafc]

So what kind of bird name she would be? ..... Hitam?



Cucak Rowo quite catchy though

Or maybe Ciblek, Black Ciblek

 

[Kafkaesque]

There is plan to incorporate LEN, Info Global, and other and make comprehensive road map on jet fighter technology. We need to get Government support. Mindef has agreed on that comprehensive plan in principal.

I know that it is necessary, but somehow it sounds bitter to my ear.

Oh well, I truly hope that I will be proven wrong in the future.

 

[Indos]

I know that it is necessary, but somehow it sounds bitter to my ear.

Oh well, I truly hope that I will be proven wrong in the future.

There should be an assessment as well whether this fighter jet will obsolete 40 years from now or not before making such road map. This is why MALE drone UCAV has a road map to master all the neccessary technology, not only design, fuselage manufacturing, and system integration.

There is point of view that in the future fighter jet will be replaced by drone fighter.

But I need to ensure you guys that people inside the program understand it and look like Mindef is supporting the idea and next is to sell it to government to get the fund

 

[Madokafc]

If Indonesia can get Rafale and using this Boramae too, we should integrated Meteor, MICA, Apache, HAMMER and Storm Shadow

 

[Parry Brima]

This was exactly the early step we went through when we started the C-212 at the end of 70's and early of 80's. We learned from Spain's CASA first on how to mastery the modern manufacturing technology for aircraft production. Then proceed on technology integration and co-development of CN-235, and so on, until the indigenous N-250 and N-2130 program was that close to be materialized. Unfortunately, the 1998 monetary crisis wiped out the nation's dream.
That means it's fine to learn how to manufacture jet fighter airframe as the starting point. But, don't forget all the next steps in a long run with continuous increment of learning curve and technological mastery advancement.
We should not forget the big-picture : Indonesian indigenous jet fighter competitive to similar products worldwide.

Warisan Habibie dan Peningkatan Kapabilitas Industri Pertahanan Nasional

Warisan Habibie dan Peningkatan Kapabilitas Industri Pertahanan Nasional - Pustaka - TNI Angkatan Udara

tni-au.mil.id

Habibie was against this KFX project to be fair. He believed that Indonesia should just focus on developing the civilian aircraft design & manufacturing capability than jet fighter. The market is a lot bigger (domestic & international) so our chance to get break even and also profit is higher.

Personally, I don't expect much from KFX in terms of our ability to build our own jet fighter. We only pay 20%, of course we'll only get so little. I just hope that it means we only need to spend something like $40 mil per aircraft instead of $65 mil

 

[joedhie2k]

So what kind of bird name she would be? ..... Hitam?



Cucak Rowo quite catchy though

Or maybe Ciblek, Black Ciblek

in FB there is sugestion for "Bido", simpel and has similar wording with Boramae

 

[lemons]

Don't know, but I'm curious why there's no "IF-X" word during the launch?

Also, when they arrived in Indonesia, will it be named as IF-21, KF-21 ID or plain KF-21? Tho KF-21 ID for me is quite hilarious...

 

[Indos]

Habibie was against this KFX project to be fair. He believed that Indonesia should just focus on developing the civilian aircraft design & manufacturing capability than jet fighter. The market is a lot bigger (domestic & international) so our chance to get break even and also profit is higher.

Personally, I don't expect much from KFX in terms of our ability to build our own jet fighter. We only pay 20%, of course we'll only get so little. I just hope that it means we only need to spend something like $40 mil per aircraft instead of $65 mil

Habibie wants government to fund R 80, he has vested interest on that opinion

 

[Madokafc]

in FB there is sugestion for "Bido", simpel and has similar wording with Boramae

As long as they don't use Dodo as the name, i would content

 

[joedhie2k]

Habibie was against this KFX project to be fair. He believed that Indonesia should just focus on developing the civilian aircraft design & manufacturing capability than jet fighter. The market is a lot bigger (domestic & international) so our chance to get break even and also profit is higher.

Personally, I don't expect much from KFX in terms of our ability to build our own jet fighter. We only pay 20%, of course we'll only get so little. I just hope that it means we only need to spend something like $40 mil per aircraft instead of $65 mil

i agree with him.. due to the nature of our armed forces who is never willing to spend large sum of money in local RnD project, having a specific industry for just military consumption is not a good venture

yes we need companies that can make radar, but not specific just military radar.. let them start with civilian side first.

the biggest advantage of joining this project is that we can have all major MRO capabilities locally (like airframe and engine).. and able to replace some airframe parts if required

 

[Zuko]

I don't mean to ruin the party, but this is what I worry about the KFX program:

Teknologi & Pembiayaan, Tantangan Proyek Jet KFX Prabowo

RI melalui Menteri Pertahanan RI, Prabowo Subianto sepakat untuk melanjutkan program jet tempur bersama Korea Selatan

www.cnbcindonesia.com

Specifically, the tech part (I don't think Connie mentioned about the engine, I'd like to add that). 1-2 billion USD is quite cheap, I'm sure the gov can easily fund it, IF they want to.

But what about if we don't get the tech? We were so happy at the start of the program, because back then we thought it'd mean "kemandirian", but as things goes on, turn out the "kemandirian" we got is ONLY about the airframe (since our engineers helped drawing the aircraft).

I don't want us to replace the US and / or the Europe and exchange it to Korea. In fact, I believe this is why the Korean is so insistent in keeping us on the KFX program. It is very easy for them to fund the gap if we left, but if we stay, and say in 2030 we have enough budget for 100 KFX aircrafts (our defense budget is keep increasing, it is very possible), imagine how much money is going to their way since we need them to provide EVERYTHING, except the airframe?

I hope Prabowo (the government) can negotiate a better deal for us.

PS:

(1) Or, alternatively, we take the "airframe knowledge", pay the rest of the "obligation" (2 billion in exchange of knowing how to built an aircrafts body is still acceptable), then go on our way. Open negotiation with the others (France, or even the US) to provide us with the necessary tech.

(2) I don't hate / dislike the Korean, I just don't like to be put on a situation where our supposedly future backbone fighters in entirely dependent on them (on one country).

I think it is fair to have concern about obtaining key technology from this collaboration. TBH I don't think we should rely only on this project in trying to master stealth/fighter aircraft technology and its support system ..... as I don't think any country would want to share their technology just like that.

So IMO, its up to our government to create road map (with alternative routes) to master key technologies that can make our country "somewhat" independent and having ability to produce fighters and other critical defense equipments that caters to our needs. Similar to your alt (1)

What I would like to see from this KFX/IFX program is if there would be Networked UAV plan in place for future development...? Something like Loyal Wingman. I would assume Sokor is thinking about this already, so maybe this could be an area where we can play bigger role.

Understand that KAI has entered into collaboration with Elbit and IAI on UAV development (as below)

KAI signs UAV pacts with Israel’s Elbit and IAI

Korea Aerospace Industries and Elbit Systems have signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) to co-operate on unmanned air vehicles, following a similar agreement with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI).

www.flightglobal.com

 

[joedhie2k]

Will it be IF-21, or KF-21 ID? The latter one is quite hilarious for me tho

Most important numbers are TS-2101 to TS-2160

 

[Madokafc]

i agree with him.. due to the nature of our armed forces who is never willing to spend large sum of money in local RnD project, having a specific industry for just military consumption is not a good venture

yes we need companies that can make radar, but not specific just military radar.. let them start with civilian side first.

the biggest advantage of joining this project is that we can have all major MRO capabilities locally (like airframe and engine).. and able to replace some airframe parts if required

Though back to my past post before, this country is historically never willing to commit for large scale Air Force built up post Soekarno era, in which in turn Made the quantity of our fighter is very lacking and in turn Made the incentive to taking more serious offset seems to be a jokes. Unless we Made serious Investment here, nothing would be change.

 

[Indos]

LOL

 

[Parry Brima]

Habibie wants government to fund R 80, he has vested interest on that opinion

He had been having that opinion since we weren't born

Anyway, I'm not against KFX. Like I said, I want us to operate KFX Block III

 

[Umigami]

LOL

View attachment 17866

He's actually Malaysian, isn't he?

 

[Indos]

He's actually Malaysian, isn't he?

Nope, most Korean hates Indonesian after that renegotiation, unreasonable demands, and so on. Particularly the "awam" one. Knowledgeable Korean that we have had at least 2 of them in PDF dont act like this

 

[Stuka Dive]

Look, the way the program is doing, if there is nothing change, we will GET STUCK at the building-the-airframe part.

If we want to learn about the engine, radar, avionics etc, well the Korean are doing it. Can we learn with the Korean? No.

That's why I said, first, hopefully Prabowo / gov can get a better deal (that is we learn the engine / avionics etc - along with the Korean. If we have to pay extra, it's OK).

Or, alternatively we can take the airframe knowledge, say goodbye to Korea, and start learning on our own / asking for ToT with others.

What will happen if we don't do either of the things above?

In 2030, we will find that the fighters that we projected to be called as our "main fighters" is totally at the mercy of the Korean.

PS: Aren't we also pretty much stuck at the "building the airframe" on CN-235? I mean, yes we learn to build other airframe, but we are still ZERO / BASIC at things like engine, avionics and radar.

Of course we still need to learn about airframe (learning will never stop), but we need to move on to the other parts.

Yes I agree with you, what i wrote as started with airframe manufacturing doesn't mean to stuck forever in airframe technology or even solely cooperates with Korean industries.
As you mentioned if Prabowo can get better deal with the Korean, that is also fine. As long as we can get into deeper on each systems. But if not, we must look to other promising parties. Just don't redo again the same thing with that new "partner". We must learned new things and deeper aspects. That is why i reiterated "don't forget the big picture". No matter with whom we will go through that long miles, we should have this big picture in our mind. In other words, we should have well-planned and systematic steps to achieve it within certain periods of time.
As for Korean, they do have this roadmap since decades ago ( see the attached file). For sure, they will not give that technological expertise (developed in decades) easily to us in just 5-10 years ahead. Unless otherwise more financial contribution and long term commitment are agreed. Anyway, at the end it's all about business too. Should have win-win solution for all parties.