Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[trishna_amrta]

This is a lucrative deal for the salesman and middleman though, one can get "consultation fee" from the both side, ahhh one old glory days....

On serious notes, they should taking profesional opinion from expert, crew and industrial sides about all the pros and cons. Though all would come with their respective consulting fees

And as usual, nobody cares of the end user point of view & requirement or whether the end user will be coming back home in one piece to our family

 

[trishna_amrta]

better name it U217 (17 for independence day)

There won't be Type 216 for export. The export version of Type 216 is Type 218. It's the same with type 212, the export version is Type 214.

 

[trishna_amrta]

View attachment 22218

this one Kowal in the middle is something View attachment 22224

Those are the last clothing type & colour you want to wear when working onboard any operating ship

 

[Van Kravchenko]

There won't be Type 216 for export. The export version of Type 216 is Type 218. It's the same with type 212, the export version is Type 214.

AFAIK, Type 216 is only concept nomenclature.

In other hand , type 212 also serve in portugal and german.


If we talking about modern submarine manufacture capability. I doubt PAL cam handle State of The art submarine with tear drop design

 

[trishna_amrta]

AFAIK, Type 216 is only concept nomenclature.

In other hand , type 212 also serve in portugal and german.

is part of , while is the originating country of the boat.

 

[Madokafc]

And as usual, nobody cares of the end user point of view & requirement or whether the end user will be coming back home in one piece to our family

Seriously no, even the so called "local industry" which jobs only doing tampal stiker had much voice in any procurement process

If anything, in my current experience, the Army Brass got more voice and power to do their own procurement pick according to their requirement compared to the Navy and Air Force

 

[Madokafc]

Third Battalion Marine corps, Pathfinder unit is in training, there is RPD GPMG still in action

 

[Umigami]

The one talking about unmanned submarine is PT PAL Director that has experience in naval shipbuilding in Japan and has Phd from Japan universities in shipbuilding program, he also has degree in electronics so understand how AI works. Why dont you see his conversation with Dahlan Iskan

Who care... he's not military guy.

How these UUV gonna maintain communication with HQ especially when submerge? we don't even have Military satellite.
Submarine operations are silent in nature. How these UUV maintaining silent if large amount of data sharing happen?
If war broke out and these UUVs have to do search and destroy operations, are you seriously gonna entrusted everything to these AI to identify friendly, enemy, allies, or civilian ?

Delusional is Delusional.

 

[Van Kravchenko]

there is RPD GPMG still in action

Am afraid the picture above didn't show any RPD LMG.

One that obvious is RPD didnt have capability to quick change barrel, also its come in 7,62 x39 catridges.

The last picture above indicating the Infantry use of FN MAG.

 

[Indos]

Who care... he's not military guy.

How these UUV gonna maintain communication with HQ especially when submerge? we don't even have Military satellite.
Submarine operations are silent in nature. How these UUV maintaining silent if large amount of data sharing happen?
If war broke out and these UUVs have to do search and destroy operations, are you seriously gonna entrusted everything to these AI to identify friendly, enemy, allies, or civilian ?

Delusional is Delusional.

AI will not be totally in control. I trust this Phd than you. Other countries have also this kind of program.

I am talking the situation about 6-10 years from now to make it, after PAL can complete making whole submarine if Indonesia enter second batch CBG program.

Dont think black and white when someone talk about the use of AI as if anything will be controlled by AI

 

[Lordimperator]

AI to identify friendly, enemy, allies, or civilian

Still premature in this decades,

 

[Madokafc]

Am afraid the picture above didn't show any RPD LMG.

One that obvious is RPD didnt have capability to quick change barrel, also its come in 7,62 x39 catridges.

The last picture above indicating the Infantry use of FN MAG.

Oh right, you got it

 

[Madokafc]

AI will not be totally in control. I trust this Phd than you. Other countries have also this kind of program.

I am talking the situation about 6-10 years from now to make it, after PAL can complete making whole submarine if Indonesia enter second batch CBG program.

Dont think black and white when someone talk about the use of AI as if anything will be controlled by AI

Do you believe that? With cap tampal stiker business model PT PAL had?

Sorry, i don't bought this guy at all, with all of the little respect i had for any defense related SoE in Indonesia in which i had many friends inside their business circle.

Even then the more simpler KCR 60 is quite a let down for any Naval crew who manned it compared to their FPB 57 NAV series type before. Let alone a Submarine

If we are talking about PT PAL break through in Submarine building technology just like what South Korean did with their indigenous model they had after license producing and bought more than dozen Germany Made model Submarine and three decades of effort, only after acquire Six South Korean Submarine and most of the work is done in South Korea and what PT PAL doing is assembly lines and tampal stiker this quite a talk and complete nonsense.



Don't say we are talking submersible autonomous glider just like what some fisherman got caught several Times ago.

 

[Umigami]

AI will not be totally in control. I trust this Phd than you. Other countries have also this kind of program.

I am talking the situation about 6-10 years from now to make it, after PAL can complete making whole submarine if Indonesia enter second batch CBG program.

Dont think black and white when someone talk about the use of AI as if anything will be controlled by AI

Say all these countries out loud while look at yourself in the "mirror".

 

[Parry Brima]

AI will not be totally in control. I trust this Phd than you. Other countries have also this kind of program.

I am talking the situation about 6-10 years from now to make it, after PAL can complete making whole submarine if Indonesia enter second batch CBG program.

Dont think black and white when someone talk about the use of AI as if anything will be controlled by AI

He's probably not PhD, but I think we should listen to users like him more.

"Heri juga sempat menyinggung kapal selam buatan PT PAL (Persero) yang dianggap tidak memuaskan......"

"Bahkan, menurut cerita Heri kepada Kompas, ada perwira yang justru dipersulit atasannya karena melaporkan buruknya kapal selam buatan PT PAL."

Pesan Komandan Nanggala-402 soal Alutsista TNI, Jangan Sekadar "Asal Bapak Senang" Halaman all - Kompas.com

Komandan kapal selam Nanggala-402 Letkol Laut (P) Heri Oktavian yang turut gugur bersama puluhan anak buahnya. Halaman all

nasional.kompas.com

 

[Anmdt]

Dont think black and white when someone talk about the use of AI as if anything will be controlled by AI

Apart from black and white, i think skeptical when someone slaps the AI word into anything unmanned as if it is a magic to work it out.

Our new PT PAL Director is quite expert, why dont you check what he said in the media ? The mini sub will be unmanned and use AI and also has torpedos inside.

He said it will be much cheaper. But I think before we make them, better wait until we can make complete submarine by continuing the second batch Chang Bogo program, so need some years

To make an UUV with torpedoes and AI, one;
-First should master submarine design and construction, understand human factor and how to remove it from a design.
-Then weapon systems and integrated systems (CMS, sensors and sensor fusion of sonar, wake sensor, EMW sensor)
-Then AI, and decision making, put alone the decision making part and give it to an operator, partially autonomy is sufficient with situational awareness.
-Meanwhile mastering submarine operations in various conditions, to feed the AI correctly at least a submarine is going to be dedicated for this.
- Creating a threat and acoustic, EM, wake profile library, means monitoring and collecting data from various surface and submerged platforms, in straits, passage exercises, actual joint exercises.
-And finally assemble an L-UUV as claimed.

Even most experienced countries are steps away from achieving that. UUVs are still being designed as part of manned submarines, to be used as external sensors to collect data from far away, more silently. Highly under human supervision. Or being individual intelligence gathering platforms which occasionally surfaces and delivers the collected data, or can trail threats and inform the HQ so that the target can be engaged if seen dangerous.

Don't take Iran as an example here their UUV is for the show business, it is not truly operational as an UUV . You may look at Russia and US and how they are using the UUVs currently and how long, with their expertise on that field had taken them to make an UUV.

So it is for best to focus on ROV first to enhance ASW and MCMW operations, then UUVs to enhance it further and invest money on these in short to mid term. As i have told before anything is achievable with a solid roadmap. I am not telling it can not be done, anything is achievable with a solid ground.

Torpedo is technically an UUV they can start by making one.
Sonar is technically an AI, they can start by making one with a threat library.

How long do you think it took US to actually develop those XL-UUVs yet they still foresee a mid-far future to equip those with arms:

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401426931153727490

 

[Indos]

Apart from black and white, i think skeptical when someone slaps the AI word into anything unmanned as if it is a magic to work it out.


To make an UUV with torpedoes and AI, one;
-First should master submarine design and construction, understand human factor and how to remove it from a design.
-Then weapon systems and integrated systems (CMS, sensors and sensor fusion of sonar, wake sensor, EMW sensor)
-Then AI, and decision making, put alone the decision making part and give it to an operator, partially autonomy is sufficient with situational awareness.
-Meanwhile mastering submarine operations in various conditions, to feed the AI correctly at least a submarine is going to be dedicated for this.
- Creating a threat and acoustic, EM, wake profile library, means monitoring and collecting data from various surface and submerged platforms, in straits, passage exercises, actual joint exercises.
-And finally assemble an L-UUV as claimed.

Even most experienced countries are steps away from achieving that. UUVs are still being designed as part of manned submarines, to be used as external sensors to collect data from far away, more silently. Highly under human supervision. Or being individual intelligence gathering platforms which occasionally surfaces and delivers the collected data, or can trail threats and inform the HQ so that the target can be engaged if seen dangerous.

Don't take Iran as an example here their UUV is for the show business, it is not truly operational as an UUV . You may look at Russia and US and how they are using the UUVs currently and how long, with their expertise on that field had taken them to make an UUV.

So it is for best to focus on ROV first to enhance ASW and MCMW operations, then UUVs to enhance it further and invest money on these in short to mid term. As i have told before anything is achievable with a solid roadmap. I am not telling it can not be done, anything is achievable with a solid ground.

Torpedo is technically an UUV they can start by making one.
Sonar is technically an AI, they can start by making one with a threat library.

How long do you think it took US to actually develop those XL-UUVs yet they still foresee a mid-far future to equip those with arms:
View attachment 22326

I dont talk about building it now, just check on my previous comment, wait after we complete building one submarine hull in Chang Bogo second batch (it will be quite long since complete one will be built in the third subs), and then see whether PT PAL can build unmanned submarine first. Dont stress on AI to let down this future project, they may use it in steps if they can, if cannot then unmanned submarine without AI is already enough.

We are talking this in the context of Prabowo plan where the situation in the future may make Prabowo ideas not really efficient for future warfare.

As I said, just take 20 billion USD foreign loan until 2024 while we let our local defense companies build their sophistication step by step. Of course there will be components that needs to be imported, but at least they will be OEM of the final products (2027 forwards) inshaAllah.

 

[Saithan]

Apart from black and white, i think skeptical when someone slaps the AI word into anything unmanned as if it is a magic to work it out.


To make an UUV with torpedoes and AI, one;
-First should master submarine design and construction, understand human factor and how to remove it from a design.
-Then weapon systems and integrated systems (CMS, sensors and sensor fusion of sonar, wake sensor, EMW sensor)
-Then AI, and decision making, put alone the decision making part and give it to an operator, partially autonomy is sufficient with situational awareness.
-Meanwhile mastering submarine operations in various conditions, to feed the AI correctly at least a submarine is going to be dedicated for this.
- Creating a threat and acoustic, EM, wake profile library, means monitoring and collecting data from various surface and submerged platforms, in straits, passage exercises, actual joint exercises.
-And finally assemble an L-UUV as claimed.

Even most experienced countries are steps away from achieving that. UUVs are still being designed as part of manned submarines, to be used as external sensors to collect data from far away, more silently. Highly under human supervision. Or being individual intelligence gathering platforms which occasionally surfaces and delivers the collected data, or can trail threats and inform the HQ so that the target can be engaged if seen dangerous.

Don't take Iran as an example here their UUV is for the show business, it is not truly operational as an UUV . You may look at Russia and US and how they are using the UUVs currently and how long, with their expertise on that field had taken them to make an UUV.

So it is for best to focus on ROV first to enhance ASW and MCMW operations, then UUVs to enhance it further and invest money on these in short to mid term. As i have told before anything is achievable with a solid roadmap. I am not telling it can not be done, anything is achievable with a solid ground.

Torpedo is technically an UUV they can start by making one.
Sonar is technically an AI, they can start by making one with a threat library.

How long do you think it took US to actually develop those XL-UUVs yet they still foresee a mid-far future to equip those with arms:
View attachment 22326

Countries with offshore oil platforms should have edtablished extensive knowledge on ROV. As ROV would be used to inspect rigs, platforms caissons etc.

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1401509860949118976