Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[KanalKiri]

we really need bigger gunboat for flagship.

 

[FPXAllen]

Then why bother putting the 'C'?

"Because it's stil faster than our phinisi boats." - said nobody ever. Probably.

1. There's not yet any standardize agreement on what speed constitute as "fast"
2. I wasn't fond of the name either, actually at that size we could classify the KCR-60 as (small) corvette. The Hellenic navy classifies the similarly sized Roussen FAC as corvette.

Aside from what the PAL production chief has said in the video, I've got the impression that some kind of ego-stroking may have played some parts in choosing the name of "KCR" while the ships themselves are not as "C" as their name suggested. That, and also since our navy tend to not follow the more established naming convention for their class of vessels and created their own nomenclatures, such as "PKR" which can cover anything from corvette / light frigate up to (probably) cruiser.

Of course, while there are some benefits with this kind of categorization, it will also create confusion for us.

Anyway, I do think that PAL chief got it right in some of the points he mentioned. Like when he said that fast ships are not quite useful without stealth. But then it raised another question: Why then, PT PAL hasn't designed anything that's purposely designed to minimize radar signature as much as possible? Something like the USS Jackson which is currently in our waters? Or even smaller ones like Chinese Type-022 missile boats?

Now don't get me started by mentioning that our Damen's Sigmas are stealth ships since they're not. They may have incorporated some stealthy features in their design and while it may be able to reduce radar signature, but overall I don't think that it will be that much lower than other ships of conventional design in their class.

 

[Lordimperator]

"Because it's stil faster than our phinisi boats." - said nobody ever. Probably.

... because its faster than civilian vessels

I've got the impression that some kind of ego-stroking may have played some parts in choosing the name of "KCR" while the ships themselves are not as "C" as their name suggested

Ofc lah , as long as its "Karya Anak Bangsa"

Why then, PT PAL hasn't designed anything that's purposely designed to minimize radar signature as much as possible? Something like the USS Jackson which is currently in our waters? Or even smaller ones like Chinese Type-022 missile boats?

Maybe PAL dont have the will, even Klewang not 100% *designed inspired like earthrace 2 trimaran vessel, atleast they tried. And it has stealth design hull shape like f117

 

[JATOSINT]

Does anyone have more info about this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458670502545813504

 

[Gary]

Now don't get me started by mentioning that our Damen's Sigmas are stealth ships since they're not. They may have incorporated some stealthy features in their design and while it may be able to reduce radar signature, but overall I don't think that it won't be that much lower than other ships of conventional design in their class.

There's no such thing as "stealth" the more correct term is LO or "Low Observability".

Low Observability varies between platforms, some are lower observable than the others. Hence there is LO, reduced LO and VLO

So the correct term for the SIGMA is not "semi stealth" like many of our media like to portray. It's actually a reduced LO ship.

Saying semi stealth is like saying semi handsome or something. It's comes down to degrees

 

[R4duga]

Does anyone have more info about this?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458670502545813504

this one ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-08/illegal-fishing-vessels-destroyed-seafood-seized/100597184

 

[R4duga]

"Because it's stil faster than our phinisi boats." - said nobody ever. Probably.

Aside from what the PAL production chief has said in the video, I've got the impression that some kind of ego-stroking may have played some parts in choosing the name of "KCR" while the ships themselves are not as "C" as their name suggested. That, and also since our navy tend to not follow the more established naming convention for their class of vessels and created their own nomenclatures, such as "PKR" which can cover anything from corvette / light frigate up to (probably) cruiser.

Of course, while there are some benefits with this kind of categorization, it will also create confusion for us.

Anyway, I do think that PAL chief got it right in some of the points he mentioned. Like when he said that fast ships are not quite useful without stealth. But then it raised another question: Why then, PT PAL hasn't designed anything that's purposely designed to minimize radar signature as much as possible? Something like the USS Jackson which is currently in our waters? Or even smaller ones like Chinese Type-022 missile boats?

Now don't get me started by mentioning that our Damen's Sigmas are stealth ships since they're not. They may have incorporated some stealthy features in their design and while it may be able to reduce radar signature, but overall I don't think that it won't be that much lower than other ships of conventional design in their class.

aiming to get pleasing and "whoa" response from general public/simple people with such "ndakik ndakik" abbreviation perhaps.

If navy thought "cepat" should be around "25-28 knots", what they gonna name the ship with top speed above 40 knots and 50 knots ? "super cepat" ?

 

[FPXAllen]

There's no such thing as "stealth" the more correct term is LO or "Low Observability".

Low Observability varies between platforms, some are lower observable than the others. Hence there is LO, reduced LO and VLO

So the correct term for the SIGMA is not "semi stealth" like many of our media like to portray. It's actually a reduced LO ship.

Yeah, I should've phrased my reply better. But even then I doubt that the design of Sigma class can actually reduce the radar signature by a fourth or even third compared to other more conventional design of the same length and displacement.

Would love to be proven wrong though.

Maybe PAL dont have the will, even Klewang not 100% *designed inspired like earthrace 2 trimaran vessel, atleast they tried. And it has stealth design hull shape like f117

And this is precisely why I'm very supportive for Lundin's Klewang-class projects. Some may pooh-pooh their efforts saying that their design is not reliable due to the carbon fiber materials used, that it doesn't have the durability and so on. But they conveniently put aside the fact that Lundin is the only private shipyard in Indonesia who's willing to take the risk to create something unorthodox and, given enough chance and funds, they will be able to improve their design further.

Rather than "playing it safe" as some has mentioned here and elsewhere, we actually need more of the line of thinking like Lundin has.

If navy thought "cepat" should be around "25-28 knots", what they gonna name the ship with top speed above 40 knots and 50 knots ? "super cepat" ?

"Lightspeed"

 

[JATOSINT]

this one ? https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-08/illegal-fishing-vessels-destroyed-seafood-seized/100597184

No, about our navy postponing a joint military exercise due to the incident

 

[Lordimperator]

No, about our navy postponing a joint military exercise due to the incident

I bet its just assumption made by Nuicemedia admin, they just made it as clickbait

 

[Gary]

Yeah, I should've phrased my reply better. But even then I doubt that the design of Sigma class can actually reduce the radar signature by a fourth or even third compared to other more conventional design of the same length and displacement.

Would love to be proven wrong though.

as for the RCS, we'll prolly never know the real numbers, which will be classified from the public, but I'm sure its low observable enough, especially looking at the side flush slope which reduces return.

there are many ways a warship could stay "invisible" while operating at sea. Those 'stealth' design are only to help maximize reducing observability.

On of the way to reduce a ship observability is by the practice of emissions control or EMCON .

EMCON management for ships consists of four levels:

• EMCON Delta – The first level with no emission restrictions, used during normal operations.
• EMCON Charlie – The second level, allowing ships to transmit from mission-essential equipment. This level requires that any sensor unique to the vessel must be turned off in order to prevent identification or classification by adversaries.
• EMCON Beta – The third level, electronic emissions are limited further but some communications are still allowed.
• EMCON Alpha – The fourth and most restrictive level. Employed when an operation requires complete silence, no emissions or radiations are permitted.

https://www.crfs.com/applicationstory/naval-emcon-emissions-control/

How effective is this method to mask ship position ?? Let me give you an idea.

in 1986, USS Ranger a Forrestal class supercarriers, while operating at EMCON ALPHA in exercise RIMPAC 86 managed to avoid detection by a combined US+Australian fleet in the Pacific. While at the same time bombarded Hawaii for two straight weeks and 'sunk' ships and submarine of the combined task force assigned to hunt her. This is more baffling consider how big a supercarrier is and how much RCS it have compared to lets say a SIGMA series warship.

And just over a month ago, a much lengthier case of a ″missing″ carrier occurred during an exercise named RIMPAC 86. The USS Ranger, although the target of an intense search that included satellite reconnaissance, escaped detection for two weeks while sailing across the Pacific.

The performance was considered all the more remarkable by an Australian admiral who monitored the exercise because the carrier’s planes were flying sorties throughout the period, staging mock attacks against surface ships, submarines and land targets.

How to Make an Aircraft Carrier Vanish

WASHINGTON (AP) _ U.S. Navy aircraft carriers, despite their incredible size, are becoming adept at a form of magic. Utilizing weather, speed, advanced logistical planning and high-tech tomfoolery, several carriers in recent months have managed to vanish from antagonist's eyes into the...

apnews.com

TNI-AL practiced emission control quite often , KRI GNR 332 practiced EMCON during one such exercise although it does not specify on what levels are they exercising those EMCON

Lebih lanjut, dalam latihan penembakan kali ini tetap dalam koridor keamanan informasi, dimana Emission Control (EMCON) unsur-unsur diatur secara tepat dan dinamis, sehingga kerahasiaan data Signal Intelligence tetap terjaga dan sukses dalam penembakan.

Kehebatan KRI GNR-332 TNI AL Tenggelamkan Kapal Musuh di Perbatasan RI-Malaysia dalam Latihan Perang - Surya.co.id

Inilah kehebatan KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai atau KRI GNR-332, kapal perang TNI AL yang menenggelamkan kapal musuh di perbatasan RI-Malaysia dalam latihan

surabaya.tribunnews.com

 

[R4duga]

as for the RCS, we'll prolly never know the real numbers, which will be classified from the public, but I'm sure its low observable enough, especially looking at the side flush slope which reduces return.

there are many ways a warship could stay "invisible" while operating at sea. Those 'stealth' design are only to help maximize reducing observability.

On of the way to reduce a ship observability is by the practice of emissions control or EMCON .

EMCON management for ships consists of four levels:

• EMCON Delta – The first level with no emission restrictions, used during normal operations.
• EMCON Charlie – The second level, allowing ships to transmit from mission-essential equipment. This level requires that any sensor unique to the vessel must be turned off in order to prevent identification or classification by adversaries.
• EMCON Beta – The third level, electronic emissions are limited further but some communications are still allowed.
• EMCON Alpha – The fourth and most restrictive level. Employed when an operation requires complete silence, no emissions or radiations are permitted.

https://www.crfs.com/applicationstory/naval-emcon-emissions-control/

How effective is this method to mask ship position ?? Let me give you an idea.

in 1986, USS Ranger a Forrestal class supercarriers, while operating at EMCON ALPHA in exercise RIMPAC 86 managed to avoid detection by a combined US+Australian fleet in the Pacific. While at the same time bombarded Hawaii for two straight weeks and 'sunk' ships and submarine of the combined task force assigned to hunt her. This is more baffling consider how big a supercarrier is and how much RCS it have compared to lets say a SIGMA series warship.

How to Make an Aircraft Carrier Vanish

WASHINGTON (AP) _ U.S. Navy aircraft carriers, despite their incredible size, are becoming adept at a form of magic. Utilizing weather, speed, advanced logistical planning and high-tech tomfoolery, several carriers in recent months have managed to vanish from antagonist's eyes into the...

apnews.com

TNI-AL practiced emission control quite often , KRI GNR 332 practiced EMCON during one such exercise although it does not specify on what levels are they exercising those EMCON

Kehebatan KRI GNR-332 TNI AL Tenggelamkan Kapal Musuh di Perbatasan RI-Malaysia dalam Latihan Perang - Surya.co.id

Inilah kehebatan KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai atau KRI GNR-332, kapal perang TNI AL yang menenggelamkan kapal musuh di perbatasan RI-Malaysia dalam latihan

surabaya.tribunnews.com

this was the case if the enemy use listening device or so called passive radar/ESM, to catch enemy radio frequency emission ? while the RCS topic are probably addressed in which scenario the enemy use active radar right ?

in the scenario where our hostile entity are going to be country like china/US, our chance to hide our fleet from their satellite in orbit are very minimal, unless the mother nature interfere (cloudy weather or hurricanes).

 

[satria]

Foreign Minister Truss: British Warships to be Built in Indonesia Next Year

British warships will be built in Surabaya, Indonesia, next year. This was conveyed by the Minister of Foreign Affairs (Menlu) Liz Truss during a press conference with Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Lestari Priansasi Marsudi, Thursday (11/11/2021).

The warship development plan is part of cooperation in the defense sector. The two Foreign Ministers discussed security and stability issues in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Two weeks ago, a British carrier strike group visited Jakarta. And next year, a British-designed frigate will be built in Surabaya. This is part of our extensive cooperation in the defense sector. We want to deepen our cooperation in this area," Truss said.

Furthermore, the top diplomats of the two countries discussed digital and technology fields.

"We need to ensure that technology standards are established by the free world and we want to cooperate with Indonesia in areas such as cyber and next-generation technology, whether it be 5G, 6G, or fields such as artificial intelligence and quantum," said the Foreign Minister. Truss.

Not only that, they further discussed cooperation in counterterrorism, cyber security to the COVID-19 pandemic.

"We have also discussed the importance of health and in particular, the spread of vaccines. We are pleased to be able to supply one million vaccines to Indonesia, and we want to work together," Truss said.

(min)

Menlu Truss: Kapal Perang Inggris Dibangun di Indonesia Tahun Depan

Tahun depan, fregat rancangan Inggris akan dibangun di Surabaya, kata Menlu Truss. Kapal perang Inggris akan dibangun di Surabaya, Indonesia, pada tahun depan....

international.sindonews.com

 

[Gary]

this was the case if the enemy

My point here is we should not worry too much if our navy ships doesn't have the desired RCS , there are methods other than cross section reduction that could make a ship a very powerful tool at sea.

Most people prolly think that a warship spec alone is detrimental to victory at sea, while sometimes forgetting that at sea unlike on land, its people operating a weapon (crewed) instead of people getting armed. When it comes to naval warfare it comes to tech and most importantly the crew operating those ships. A strict emission control demonstrated by the Ranger back then are only possible from a highly skilled crew.

if in 1986, the USS Ranger were manned by the Libyan navy, then the result would have been different.

also the exercise demonstrate again why naval aviation is very important, something that the ID navy would want to look at in the future.

in the scenario where our hostile entity are going to be country like china/US, our chance to hide our fleet from their satellite in orbit are very minimal, unless the mother nature interfere (cloudy weather or hurricanes).

Here:

And just over a month ago, a much lengthier case of a ″missing″ carrier occurred during an exercise named RIMPAC 86. The USS Ranger, although the target of an intense search that included satellite reconnaissance, escaped detection for two weeks while sailing across the Pacific.

The performance was considered all the more remarkable by an Australian admiral who monitored the exercise because the carrier’s planes were flying sorties throughout the period, staging mock attacks against surface ships, submarines and land targets.

How to Make an Aircraft Carrier Vanish

WASHINGTON (AP) _ U.S. Navy aircraft carriers, despite their incredible size, are becoming adept at a form of magic. Utilizing weather, speed, advanced logistical planning and high-tech tomfoolery, several carriers in recent months have managed to vanish from antagonist's eyes into the...

apnews.com

But you have a point here, the Indonesian navy is not the US Navy. So whatever the USN achieved back then , there's no guarantee we could replicate.

In fact, we shouldn't be talking China or USA when it comes to navy, how about we beat Singapore first ??

 

[FPXAllen]

On of the way to reduce a ship observability is by the practice of emissions control or EMCON

Thanks mate. Learn something new everyday

in the scenario where our hostile entity are going to be country like china/US, our chance to hide our fleet from their satellite in orbit are very minimal, unless the mother nature interfere (cloudy weather or hurricanes).

More reason why we should increase the number our submarines substantially.

Foreign Minister Truss: British Warships to be Built in Indonesia Next Year

The title is a bit misleading. At first glance, it as if like we will built warships for the Royal Navy. Or is it?

But you have a point here, the Indonesian navy is not the US Navy. So whatever the USN achieved back then , there's no guarantee we could replicate.

In fact, we shouldn't be talking China or USA when it comes to navy, how about we beat Singapore first ??

You know, I've seen the future when we have ASAT capability either with air / ground launched missiles or land-based high-powered laser.

But then I woke up...

 

[Lordimperator]

in the scenario where our hostile entity are going to be country like china/US, our chance to hide our fleet from their satellite in orbit are very minimal, unless the mother nature interfere (cloudy weather or hurricanes).

Dont have to wait to war, there are many OSINT that being spectator on the SCS disputes,

But then I woke up...

Dont forget, we have these

https://media.suara.com/pictures/653x366/2020/01/10/64398-ribut-natuna-5-juta-paranormal-siap-diterjunkan-jika-diperlukan-pemerintah.jpg

 

[R4duga]

Dont have to wait to war, there are many OSINT that being spectator on the SCS disputes,

Dont forget, we have these

https://media.suara.com/pictures/653x366/2020/01/10/64398-ribut-natuna-5-juta-paranormal-siap-diterjunkan-jika-diperlukan-pemerintah.jpg

assuming china and US doesn't have secret paranatural/occult division.

 

[FPXAllen]

Dont forget, we have these

https://media.suara.com/pictures/653x366/2020/01/10/64398-ribut-natuna-5-juta-paranormal-siap-diterjunkan-jika-diperlukan-pemerintah.jpg

assuming china and US doesn't have secret paranatural/occult division.

Yeah, and if their djinns will be ineffective due to heavy resistance by their enemies' ESP spec ops forces, as last resort they will have no other choice but to open a gigantic portal which will swallow the whole enemy fleets and isekai'ed them all to Hades or somewhere else.

But before all that, they should provide a thorough and satisfying explanation about why their powers can do sh*t to prevent the Dutch from having their way here for centuries in the first place.

Afterwards, I'll do what it takes to secure a front row seat when something like this will happen:

So if there's going to be a war, it will be a war unlike anything the world has ever seen where even the laws of physics don't apply.

Just imagine this:

But instead of Gundam, it's tuyul inside.

 

[Lordimperator]

assuming china and US doesn't have secret paranatural/occult division.

Remember when G.W. Bush hopped out from the SUV instead off the normal stance to ward off "santet"

prevent the Dutch from having their way here for centuries in the first place.

They have Gospel

 

[Shadow94]

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