Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[Anmdt]

Too large of sea area. And plenty sea creature around here are larger than those glider

Not on everywhere but particular areas, shouldn't be too hard to get routes of these gliders. My primary concern was animals.

Bad idea (diplomatic & legal) to jam any RNSS signal without prior open hostility

Set NOTAM for military exercises and switch jamming region daily. Hostility? This will be done in territorial waters.

Modern cryptanalysis is one aspect that the entire Indonesia establishment severely lack of (And I'm already softening my wording here)

Computers in these machines are really simple, i doubt if these use advanced encryption, the processors are rather low-energy ones and storing raw data to maximize operational time. Especially GNSS module of processor would keep a portion of the offline data. Also, the data do not have any value worth to encrypt except of the satellite modem which in most cases are the commercial one.

What worrisome about this glider finding is, the location of their finding in Makassar Strait mean in the most likely case, the glider was mapping thermocline

too much of ocean-sea data is available on open scientific communities, temperature, salinity, o2, clarity are major parameters either constantly being collected or surveyed in researches. Especially thermocline is used for sea-ocean current modelling and heat carriage for accurate meteorological forecast models, so these are pretty much avaliable.
Just yesterday got an e-mail from fellow researcher offering a terabytes of raw data to be processed by whom might be interested, literally there is excessive amount of data waiting to be processed.

I am aware of other methods to detect such systems but i don't think Indonesia has resources to install hydrophone arrays and comint buoys in great extends. Diver detection sonar could help but it would need a good network and commitment,in terms of financial and operation. Also would perform better at shallow waters.
It is nearly impossible to detect these through passive methods. Primary source of noise is the oil pump which is used to elevate the glider (revealing its acoustic signature nearly to 5 km), but nowadays for extra a few thousand bucks people can get a silent pump and avoid detection by that. weight shifter(pitch control) and roll control motor has typical noises in high bands which is absorbed-damped in first hundred meters below the background noise.

 

[Parry Brima]

Russia have been developing underwater drone killer. Its main task is to survey the bottom and search for enemy underwater drones.

Maybe we need something like this. Hope other countries have been developing this sort of stuff as well.

================

​

Russian Firm Developing Underwater Drone Killer​

• Our Bureau
• 01:18 PM, June 1, 2020
• 2779

Undersea drone killer in development. Screenshot from video

An autonomous underwater vehicle that can destroy below-surface drones and mines is being developed by a Russian firm, Region.

The drone can be armed with various projectiles to destroy different types of unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs) such as attack and reconnaissance drones and even undersea mines.

A peak into the development has been captured by tvzvezda, the official TV channel of the Russian MoD.

The drone killer will have a nose and a pressurized compartment where all of its controls are located, a tail with an engine inside, and a robot armed with special pistol.

“These are ready-made elements that can be used in the development of new products. In the drawing, changing the parts takes about five minutes, in reality it will take a little more - about 15 minutes,” said Roman Korolkov, Lead Design Engineer of the Region.

Defense World

View News at Defense World

www.defenseworld.net

The original tvzvezda link : https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/2020531160-as0TK.html

 

[afiq0110]

Bad idea (diplomatic & legal) to jam any RNSS signal without prior open hostility

I am lost... Please elaborate more... It is within our sovereignty...

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1345695783840989185

 

[JATOSINT]

It can't. There isn't any technology that can. Which is the main reason their use is very popular these days. Moreover, unlike a large UAV, an underwater glider is cheap enough to be disposable.


And how will our fisherman hunting down something that they can't even see or detect? Although having commercial fish finder can certainly help, it still takes a serious amount of training to use them. Considering that the vast majority of our traditional fisherman (small boats) doesn't even have carried any compass with them. Although most of them do carry android phone that do have compass & GPS, unfortunately even among the highly educated Indonesian in major cities, rarely do I found anyone who knew how to their phone compass or GPS, let alone know how to read any navigational chart.

Not really

It still can be tracked/jammed through its GPS signal and by using acoustic frameworks

 

[trishna_amrta]

I am lost... Please elaborate more... It is within our sovereignty...

Nothing to do with sovereignty issue. All RNSS signal are regarded as safety--of-life service as per ITU Radio Regulations, Section IV. Radio Stations and Systems – Article 1.59. Defined as «A radiocommunication service used permanently or temporarily for the safeguarding of human life and property.»

Furthermore, it is also useless to jamming the ChiCom RNSS (Beidou) beause every modern navigation chip able to receive & process signal from variety of RNSS service provider (GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO) even most Android devices release after 2010 able to do so (assuming the user know how to use them of course)

 

[trishna_amrta]

It is nearly impossible to detect these through passive methods. Primary source of noise is the oil pump which is used to elevate the glider (revealing its acoustic signature nearly to 5 km), but nowadays for extra a few thousand bucks people can get a silent pump and avoid detection by that. weight shifter(pitch control) and roll control motor has typical noises in high bands which is absorbed-damped in first hundred meters below the background noise.

Those are very weak mechanical transient in high band there. It will be lucky enough to even pick it up beyond 1 -2 nm radius in ideal condition. It's not like those gliders emit anything in the lower band either (50 hz or 60 hz )

 

[trishna_amrta]

It still can be tracked/jammed through its GPS signal

The WHAT....? All RNSS receiver are passive (receiver). And how would you intend to track something by jamming them..???

by using acoustic frameworks

Those are very weak mechanical transient in high band there. It will be lucky enough to even pick it up beyond 1 -2 nm radius in ideal condition. It's not like those gliders emit anything in the lower band either (50 hz or 60 hz )

 

[JATOSINT]

The WHAT....? All RNSS receiver are passive (receiver). And how would you intend to track something by jamming them..???

I said it CAN, not EASY

Advancing Autonomous Systems: An Analysis of Current and Future Technology for Unmanned Maritime Vehicles (rand.org)

 

[trishna_amrta]

I said it CAN, not EASY


View attachment 10525

Advancing Autonomous Systems: An Analysis of Current and Future Technology for Unmanned Maritime Vehicles (rand.org)

IF some professor PhD something telling you that 3 x 2 = 8, or some famous TV personality telling you that Kim Kardashian boobs is real natural boobs would you believe them?

 

[schuimpjes]

@JATOSINT @trishna_amrta done boy? stop sudah sudah

 

[Anmdt]

The WHAT....? All RNSS receiver are passive (receiver). And how would you intend to track something by jamming them..???

The point is not detecting them but preventing them from getting a GPS fix and leading to inactivation.
I told earlier, gliders inactivate themselves if they can't transmit data, get a GPS fix, or stay motionless: either floats or sinks. Without a GPS fix and uncalibrated INS, the later collected data has no value or meaning.
But it is less likely for Chinese to use only Chinese GPS constellation, it is probably a multi-receiver and will not be safe for marine traffic to jam all satellites in a region.
These gliders has definitely got satellite modems to transmit data which can ease the detection depending on amount of data, cycles they have spent the transmission takes time up to half or an hour. Again it needs reverse engineering to find out which satellites it uses for communication. It could get hard if they are equipped with commercial and non-chinese systems which will be a dead end.
Some of these carries a RF receiver -transmitter or wi-fi to communicate with a Mothership. This can further reveal if any commercial ship is acting as mothership, anchored at harbor, for gliders and collecting data with short-medium range comms.
Reverse engineering will reveal many if they stop taking pictures and start tearing it apart.

Those are very weak mechanical transient in high band there. It will be lucky enough to even pick it up beyond 1 -2 nm radius in ideal condition. It's not like those gliders emit anything in the lower band either (50 hz or 60 hz )

Cheap pumps are noisy and creates a broadband noise -known by experience- detectable up to 5km, expensive ones are pretty good and emits at higher frequencies and in narrow bands. the latter consumes more power per operation. Depending on the depth span the pump may be active in %40 of the operational time (not continously bu discretely operational in that time span). I don't know which one Chinese use but most of european gliders i have known uses the cheapest available pump with realiability, it was a Japanese manufacturer.
The most logical and cost effective way is diver detection sonars (active) mostly active up to 2 km, gliders has a very typical target strength profile which can be distinguished from animals or any other submerged target. These are slow-moving vehicles and they can be collected upon detection.
Some gliders has propellers which could ease the detection.

 

[trishna_amrta]

The point is not detecting them but preventing them from getting a GPS fix

I'm aware of that, however the whole notion of tracking something that is only passively receiving (any GNSS receiver) is no-brainer to start with. Unfortunately such notion seem to be very prominent these days due to most people mistook GPS = Google Map service.

Again it needs reverse engineering to find out which satellites it uses for communication. It could get hard if they are equipped with commercial and non-chinese systems which will be a dead end.

If I were the ChiCom I connect them to either Inmarsat or Iridium and subscribing the account from some shell company.

Cheap pumps are noisy and creates a broadband noise -known by experience- detectable up to 5km, expensive ones are pretty good and emits at higher frequencies and in narrow bands. the latter consumes more power per operation. Depending on the depth span the pump may be active in %40 of the operational time (not continously bu discretely operational in that time span). I don't know which one Chinese use but most of european gliders i have known uses the cheapest available pump with realiability, it was a Japanese manufacturer.

In the most likely case they use the cheap one. But after this they most likely will change.

Is possible for you to share their Sound Profile particularly the China one if you happen to know and allowed to do so? Both in broadband and in narrowband. A simulated view would be fine. I'm curious as how their mechanical transient look like. Thanks Beforehand

 

[Madokafc]

Credit to Hobby militer

Picture depicts the arrival of Van Speijk class Frigates from Netherland, at the time is one of the most powerfull Naval ship in the region. Armed with Harpoon Missiles, Seacat and had organic ASW Helicopter and dedicated CMS along with powerful radar and other sensor

 

[Anmdt]

Is possible for you to share their Sound Profile particularly the China one if you happen to know and allowed to do so? Both in broadband and in narrowband. A simulated view would be fine. I'm curious as how their mechanical transient look like. Thanks Beforehand

I do not have anything regarding to Chinese AUG, but i have of other 2. I should see which one can be shared publicly.

 

[Madokafc]

So to me to the idea of Navy to stick with PKR is quite obsolete idea and doesn't giving important update of capability even compared to five decades old of Van Speijk class. They already had point defense capacity, AShM, and underwater warfare capability, thus the arrival of Martadinata class is not giving much update or increased in firepower or capability our Navy who traditionally had tradition to be the front Runner of Technology edge compared to the Regional peer. This should be under consideration of our Naval planner to give attention more toward this matter as technology edge is what the most important thing to build a Strong Navy!!!

 

[JATOSINT]

The point is not detecting them but preventing them from getting a GPS fix and leading to inactivation.
I told earlier, gliders inactivate themselves if they can't transmit data, get a GPS fix, or stay motionless: either floats or sinks. Without a GPS fix and uncalibrated INS, the later collected data has no value or meaning.
But it is less likely for Chinese to use only Chinese GPS constellation, it is probably a multi-receiver and will not be safe for marine traffic to jam all satellites in a region.
These gliders has definitely got satellite modems to transmit data which can ease the detection depending on amount of data, cycles they have spent the transmission takes time up to half or an hour. Again it needs reverse engineering to find out which satellites it uses for communication. It could get hard if they are equipped with commercial and non-chinese systems which will be a dead end.
Some of these carries a RF receiver -transmitter or wi-fi to communicate with a Mothership. This can further reveal if any commercial ship is acting as mothership, anchored at harbor, for gliders and collecting data with short-medium range comms.
Reverse engineering will reveal many if they stop taking pictures and start tearing it apart.

Cheap pumps are noisy and creates a broadband noise -known by experience- detectable up to 5km, expensive ones are pretty good and emits at higher frequencies and in narrow bands. the latter consumes more power per operation. Depending on the depth span the pump may be active in %40 of the operational time (not continously bu discretely operational in that time span). I don't know which one Chinese use but most of european gliders i have known uses the cheapest available pump with realiability, it was a Japanese manufacturer.
The most logical and cost effective way is diver detection sonars (active) mostly active up to 2 km, gliders has a very typical target strength profile which can be distinguished from animals or any other submerged target. These are slow-moving vehicles and they can be collected upon detection.
Some gliders has propellers which could ease the detection.

I'm aware of that, however the whole notion of tracking something that is only passively receiving (any GNSS receiver) is no-brainer to start with. Unfortunately such notion seem to be very prominent these days due to most people mistook GPS = Google Map service.


If I were the ChiCom I connect them to either Inmarsat or Iridium and subscribing the account from some shell company.


In the most likely case they use the cheap one. But after this they most likely will change.

Is possible for you to share their Sound Profile particularly the China one if you happen to know and allowed to do so? Both in broadband and in narrowband. A simulated view would be fine. I'm curious as how their mechanical transient look like. Thanks Beforehand

The Sea Wing UUV emitted signals to send the data that it has collected, right?

 

[JATOSINT]

So to me to the idea of Navy to stick with PKR is quite obsolete idea and doesn't giving important update of capability even compared to five decades old of Van Speijk class. They already had point defense capacity, AShM, and underwater warfare capability, thus the arrival of Martadinata class is not giving much update or increased in firepower or capability our Navy who traditionally had tradition to be the front Runner of Technology edge compared to the Regional peer. This should be under consideration of our Naval planner to give attention more toward this matter as technology edge is what the most important thing to build a Strong Navy!!!

Yup

We need to aim for at least a 'real frigate'

 

[afiq0110]

Nothing to do with sovereignty issue. All RNSS signal are regarded as safety--of-life service as per ITU Radio Regulations, Section IV. Radio Stations and Systems – Article 1.59. Defined as «A radiocommunication service used permanently or temporarily for the safeguarding of human life and property.»

Furthermore, it is also useless to jamming the ChiCom RNSS (Beidou) beause every modern navigation chip able to receive & process signal from variety of RNSS service provider (GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO) even most Android devices release after 2010 able to do so (assuming the user know how to use them of course)

Thanks...

So, that means we can also intercept the signal and thus must decipher it to gain the info

 

[trishna_amrta]

So, that means we can also intercept the signal and thus must decipher it to gain the info

Exactly