Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387638694220238850

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387647987426336774

 

[this is crunch]

SKK Migas: Kapal KRI Nanggala 402 Akan Diangkat Pakai Kapal Timas ENI Merakes

SKK Migas mengumumkan bahwa kapal timas DSV 1201 yang kini bekerja untuk ENI Merakes, bakal dipakai untuk mengangkat KRI Nanggala 402.

m.kumparan.com

KRI Nanggala might be recovered using underwater construction vessel according to SKK MIGAS (Special Agency for Oil and Gas works), that ship is able to laying pipe and concrete construction in the deep of 3000 meters.

But still there is no official confirmation from the navy

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387753243090964480

 

[Anmdt]

IMHO, Because of the propeller had stopped rotating then the stern went down and nose went up without any force to ascend, thus it only depends on how much was its buoyancy . If the buoyancy was very less...the sub can start sinking, or if the buoyancy was just enough to maintained it float at a certain depth but an internal solitary wave does exist at the time of the incident, it will just brought down the sub, drifted deeper and deeper

I feel like this stern down-nose up is purposefully set to be, so that in case of a blackout the submarine can easily do an emergency blow.

SKK Migas: Kapal KRI Nanggala 402 Akan Diangkat Pakai Kapal Timas ENI Merakes

SKK Migas mengumumkan bahwa kapal timas DSV 1201 yang kini bekerja untuk ENI Merakes, bakal dipakai untuk mengangkat KRI Nanggala 402.

m.kumparan.com

KRI Nanggala might be recovered using underwater construction vessel according to SKK MIGAS (Special Agency for Oil and Gas works), that ship is able to laying pipe and concrete construction in the deep of 3000 meters.

But still there is no official confirmation from the navy

Lifting a submarine which has lost structural integrity is not same as lifting something else from bottom of the ocean. They will focus on explosives and critical parts initially, they will discuss the remaining later. It is an expensive business to lift the remaining parts of whole of the structure.

 

[Nilgiri]

The interview I posted earlier said it can cost up to 200 million USD (IIRC) to raise/salvage the nanggala.

The Aussie expert said that money is better used on the living (i.e current fleet of sub safety program etc) and leave nangalla to be as memorial....and designate the spot as such.

What are members views on this?

 

[FPXAllen]

The interview I posted earlier said it can cost up to 200 million USD (IIRC) to raise/salvage the nanggala.

The Aussie expert said that money is better used on the living (i.e current fleet of sub safety program etc) and leave nangalla to be as memorial....and designate the spot as such.

What are members views on this?

Honestly, I'm split.

In one hand, I agree with his point. Our navy is already having a hard time maintaining its current fleet, so that amount of money (which most likely are going to be far more than that) could be used to improve the safety of the remaining subs.

On the other, I still think that we need to know exactly what happened, and I don't think that sending ROVs to the wreckage of Nanggala will be sufficient for this purpose.

But on the other hand again, if, and that's a big bold IF, IF it turns out that the real cause of the accident was some kind of foul play, then...

I don't know anymore...

 

[Anmdt]

On the other, I still think that we need to know exactly what happened, and I don't think that sending ROVs to the wreckage of Nanggala will be sufficient for this purpose.

The cause won't be revealed by taking the sub out as well, they should (or probably have already done) start investigation from the maintenance center,dockyard and related personnel. The crew was also taking logs of what has gone wrong or malfunctioned. They can use collective information and investigation to figure out the cause.

It will cost something to recover the sub, then cost something more to figure out the reason. the parts will be shipped abroad to investigate or decode information as well, hull and piping probably will be investigated by whomever has constructed those, or by a 3rd part who specializes on investigation like a classification society or experts.
Considering all these it can cost even more than the recovery itself.

Here a few reasons more why it is not reasonable:
- the only sistership is Cakra, which is also going to retire soon. So discovery of the reason does not introduce a new safety for a class of the ships or for the future hulls.
- Crew of Cakra has already experienced similar issues, or they are already aware of it. They will conduct a few more exercises and be adjusted with it or get it fixed.
- not all of the bodies will be recovered intact, some may not be found at all, which will make some families even more sad.
- the recovery process itself will be advertisement of some people with influence, will be more emotionally oriented than being technically oriented.

 

[Madokafc]

The interview I posted earlier said it can cost up to 200 million USD (IIRC) to raise/salvage the nanggala.

The Aussie expert said that money is better used on the living (i.e current fleet of sub safety program etc) and leave nangalla to be as memorial....and designate the spot as such.

What are members views on this?

I am seconded to the opinion to let Nanggala 402 is down under, the reason is obvious there is no better grave for the Sailor especially Submariner instead their homes along with their brother. Although i can related the feeling of their families to have anything related with the deceased to be buried formally at the ground in their hometown if possible.

The cause won't be revealed by taking the sub out as well, they should (or probably have already done) start investigation from the maintenance center,dockyard and related personnel. The crew was also taking logs of what has gone wrong or malfunctioned. They can use collective information and investigation to figure out the cause.

It will cost something to recover the sub, then cost something more to figure out the reason. the parts will be shipped abroad to investigate or decode information as well, hull and piping probably will be investigated by whomever has constructed those, or by a 3rd part who specializes on investigation like a classification society or experts.
Considering all these it can cost even more than the recovery itself.

Captain Journal Log, along with officer recommendation report, there is must be copy of previous task as report along with Maintenance check log, Engine room log, torpedo room log, control room log report those are the great start to begin the investigation... nonetheless the highest officer within the Indonesian Navy Submarine branch is actually had perished along with the Nanggala but his recommendation is had been sounded lately.

 

[this is crunch]

The cause won't be revealed by taking the sub out as well, they should (or probably have already done) start investigation from the maintenance center,dockyard and related personnel. The crew was also taking logs of what has gone wrong or malfunctioned. They can use collective information and investigation to figure out the cause.

It will cost something to recover the sub, then cost something more to figure out the reason. the parts will be shipped abroad to investigate or decode information as well, hull and piping probably will be investigated by whomever has constructed those, or by a 3rd part who specializes on investigation like a classification society or experts.
Considering all these it can cost even more than the recovery itself.

Here a few reasons more why it is not reasonable:
- the only sistership is Cakra, which is also going to retire soon. So discovery of the reason does not introduce a new safety for a class of the ships or for the future hulls.
- Crew of Cakra has already experienced similar issues, or they are already aware of it. They will conduct a few more exercises and be adjusted with it or get it fixed.
- not all of the bodies will be recovered intact, some may not be found at all, which will make some families even more sad.
- the recovery process itself will be advertisement of some people with influence, will be more emotionally oriented than being technically oriented.

Does submarine have someting like airplane's blackbox? or something that records any critical log's?

 

[BBOn]

N

Does submarine have someting like airplane's blackbox? or something that records any critical log's?

No, but I believe they have Log book. the book for record all important thing that happen in 24 hours a day , ussually it called buku harian kapal and other the one is Engine Log book , the one that used to record all thing happened inside engine room.

Both this book will give clue about what happening inside the submarine with 24 hours record for each page. But, sadly. it also going down along with nenggala. So, the only clue TNI AL left is depend with the last information from logbook and engine logbook that they had sent to their authorized officials.

 

[trishna_amrta]

The interview I posted earlier said it can cost up to 200 million USD (IIRC) to raise/salvage the nanggala.

The Aussie expert said that money is better used on the living (i.e current fleet of sub safety program etc) and leave nangalla to be as memorial....and designate the spot as such.

What are members views on this?

As I had stated earlier in this thread. Its worth every money, coin, dime, or whatever one use as currency

Honestly, I'm split.

In one hand, I agree with his point. Our navy is already having a hard time maintaining its current fleet, so that amount of money (which most likely are going to be far more than that) could be used to improve the safety of the remaining subs.

On the other, I still think that we need to know exactly what happened, and I don't think that sending ROVs to the wreckage of Nanggala will be sufficient for this purpose.

But on the other hand again, if, and that's a big bold IF, IF it turns out that the real cause of the accident was some kind of foul play, then...

I don't know anymore...

What make you think the Navy brass haven't already have really good idea as the cause of the accident Recovering the crew and the boat are not about investigation

Does submarine have someting like airplane's blackbox? or something that records any critical log's?

It's called Log book (handwritten)

 

[Barjo]

The interview I posted earlier said it can cost up to 200 million USD (IIRC) to raise/salvage the nanggala.

The Aussie expert said that money is better used on the living (i.e current fleet of sub safety program etc) and leave nangalla to be as memorial....and designate the spot as such.

What are members views on this?

With a honour no grave better than their duty post on the deep

 

[Gary]

Mourning for Nanggala in Germany.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1387762010067283976

 

[FPXAllen]

What make you think the Navy brass haven't already have really good idea as the cause of the accident Recovering the crew and the boat are not about investigation

For what its worth, what I meant with "we" was actually about all of us: Indonesians at large. I won't be surprised if the reality is actually just like what you wrote.

This brings back the hurt feelings I felt almost 9 years ago when I heard what happened and then saw the news about Klewang - a mere month after I witnessed its launch first hand.

Oh well...

 

[NEKO]

I feel like this stern down-nose up is purposefully set to be, so that in case of a blackout the submarine can easily do an emergency blow.

That's just how submarine surfacing normally right? Using propulsion to reach the surface rather than using their ballast tank, after confirming everything around the surface is clear (using periscope) then they will blow the ballast tank. But if suddenly the boat lost propulsion power then the boat would keep descending while in this angle up position, isnt submarine have neutral or a bit less buoyancy so they can stay submerged and when submarine move/manoeuvre up and down it basically just like airplane that use horizontal stabilizer (elevator).

 

[Anmdt]

That's just how submarine surfacing normally right? Using propulsion to reach the surface rather than using their ballast tank, after confirming everything around the surface is clear (using periscope) then they will blow the ballast tank. But if suddenly the boat lost propulsion power then the boat would keep descending while in this angle up position, isnt submarine have neutral or a bit less buoyancy so they can stay submerged and when submarine move/manoeuvre up and down it basically just like airplane that use horizontal stabilizer (elevator).

In emergency submarines do emergency blow, which immediately empties the main ballast tank using pressurized air, to surface the submarine as soon as possible. It is routine for submariners they do it a few times during each voyage to practice. This doesn't work if there has been a flooding exceeding capacity of the ballast tanks which is usually 1/10-1/20th of the displacement.

Emergency main ballast tank blow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

For other cases, they use mix of ballasts - active control to rise. Depends on speed, mission, stealthiness etc. Submarines usually do not surface during missions.

Neutral buoyancy or semi-buoyancy does not exists in practice, so a submarine either sinks or rises statically at a moment. Also volume of sub varies by depth, as well as the density so it becomes a little more complicated. Even if you set a fixed positive buoyancy, you may end up in a negative buoyancy condition at a different depth. In order to make it in the safe zone, the positive buoyancy tends to be high even it can be troublesome to use active control to do vertical maneuvers.

Does submarine have someting like airplane's blackbox? or something that records any critical log's?

The basic instruments are keeping logs as well, for example speed,acceleration,gyro,heading,compass,inclination etc. I am sure data from those can be recovered as well and can be used in investigations. Apart from those other logs have already been mentioned.

 

[JATOSINT]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1388092424623329285

 

[Umigami]

 

[Madokafc]

Preparation before deployment

This kind of one time improvement only happened before big military operation happened

 

[this is crunch]

Preparation before deployment

View attachment 19455 View attachment 19456 View attachment 19457 View attachment 19458

This kind of one time improvement only happened before big military operation happened

that reminds me of marine's KIA jeep during Aceh Ops