TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Baryshx]

Some tests are also done with Aksungur etc.

I just think that Akinci is a more flexible platform and Baykar being a private company without a lot of beaurcracy allows for shorter time between planning and execution.

But Anka and Aksungur need to be advertised for sales, Tusaş should change its marketing and advertising department.

Edit = Today's Hürjet images were also clumsy, it should have been a more garish and interesting show.

 

[Yasar_TR]

But the bomb is laser-guided and missed the target by more than a meter or two?

If you watch the clip again you will see that the missile doesn’t contain explosives. The dust cloud is through it’s kinetic energy at impact.
I remember watching a 155mm HE shell exploding next to an Iraqi M1Abrams MBT. The whole tank was thrown upside down. 155mm shell contains 6.6 kg explosive.
This 500kg bomb actually contains 202kg of high explosives. If it falls 3 m away from an MBT, there won’t be much of that MBT left. Detonation slightly away from target has more devastating explosive-pressure wave effect; In short a better Blast-Wave. That is why they detonate torpedoes a few metres under the belly of a ship.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

If you watch the clip again you will see that the missile doesn’t contain explosives. The dust cloud is through it’s kinetic energy at impact.
I remember watching a 155mm HE shell exploding next to an Iraqi M1Abrams MBT. The whole tank was thrown upside down. 155mm shell contains 6.6 kg explosive.
This 500kg bomb actually contains 202kg of high explosives. If it falls 3 m away from an MBT, there won’t be much of that MBT left. Detonation slightly away from target has more devastating explosive-pressure wave effect; In short a better Blast-Wave. That is why they detonate torpedoes a few metres under the belly of a ship.

I dont think if 6 kg of explosive blast 3 meter next to tank will harm tank or crew , only Antitank mine and direct hit antiTank missile can take out the tank , 202kg of course can destroy the tank even 10 meters away but 6 kg is too little .

 

[Yasar_TR]

I dont think if 6 kg of explosive blast 3 meter next to tank will harm tank or crew , only Antitank mine and direct hit antiTank missile can take out the tank , 202kg of course can destroy the tank even 10 meters away but 6 kg is too little .

What you “think” and the reality quite often do not match. Below is the picture of an Abrams tank that took a direct hit of an HE 155mm shell. It is totally destroyed.
I can’t find the picture of the Abrams that had turned upside down. But if a 155mm HE shell explodes nearby, believe me, the blast-wave is enormous.
Also I didn’t say 155mm shell was 3 m away. I said next to it. The shell had just missed the Abrams.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

What you “think” and the reality quite often do not match. Below is the picture of an Abrams tank that took a direct hit of an HE 155mm shell. It is totally destroyed.
I can’t find the picture of the Abrams that had turned upside down. But if a 155mm HE shell explodes nearby, believe me, the blast-wave is enormous.
Also I didn’t say 155mm shell was 3 m away. I said next to it. The shell had just missed the Abrams.
View attachment 51797

Ditect hit can destroy buy u daid next to tank not direct hit thats why i responded

 

[Corvus]

Ditect hit can destroy buy u daid next to tank not direct hit thats why i responded

There was actually a study done in the 80s asking exactly this question. The US Army found a discrepancy between what they and the Soviets thought was effective artillery fire against armored formations.

In 1988, a simulated armored unit consisting of tanks, APCs and manikins was subjected to 56 shells under Soviet-style fire direction. The US model predicted severe damage to the infantry and APCs, and indeed there was. They also predicted low effect on the armor, while the Soviet model predicted “30% damage.” In reality, they achieved 67% damage to the tanks, far exceeding either prediction.

Fragments damaged road wheels, detracked tanks, set one of the vehicles on fire, and penetrated the fighting compartments, injuring the manikin crews. The key to the different models was the US model expecting damage to be limited to direct hits, while the Soviets realised (likely due to their own testing) the power contained in artillery shell fragments.

(Images below from the article linked)

In this 1988 test, much to the Army’s surprise, none of the damage to the tanks was caused by a direct hit. This spurred a 4 year long program to better characterise the effects of massed fire, especially against armored vehicles.

For more information, I recommend reading “Who Says Dumb Artillery Rounds Can't Kill Armor?” (page 8) here:

http://imgur.com/a/gIjCo

 

[TheInsider]

Isnt T300 kasirga and TRG300 two different missile?
@Anmdt @TheInsider

The name of the project is project K, the name of the platform is Kasırga, names of the missiles are TR-300, TRG-300, etc.
Kasırga is a very old project.
K+ means improved Kasirga. The main difference is guided 300mm rockets.

 

[Osman]

Tr 300 artillery rocket (100 km range)
Trg 300 kaplan missile (ins/gps guided) 120 km range
Trlg 300 laser guided kaplan i.e. ins/gps/laser guided missile

There is also guidance kits namely TRGK 300 produced by roketsan which transform TR 300 dumb rockets into guided rockets

As insider said they are using the same platform Kasırga and the name of the project is K.

 

[UkroTurk]

Are there any research by Turkish Navy launching TRG-300 from under the sea?

Because launching ballistic missiles from frigate is too risky as it causes fire hazard.

For launch of cruise missiles they use special canister. İf ballistic rocket engines run in the water why not use this opportunity?

Long in short: ballistic rockets burn and their engines work under the sea?

 

[Era_shield]

But I think that the bomb is designed to hit moving targets, which means it does not have the luxury of missing the target by two or three meters, like fixed targets.

The bomb came in at quite a shallow angle, which makes it harder to hit a particular point on the ground plane because the apparent vertical size of the ground plane decreases with approach angle. A moving target like a tank would rise up above the ground plane, making it much easier to hit when the bomb has a shallow approach angle like this.

 

[AWP]

Are there any research by Turkish Navy launching TRG-300 from under the sea?

Because launching ballistic missiles from frigate is too risky as it causes fire hazard.

For launch of cruise missiles they use special canister. İf ballistic rocket engines run in the water why not use this opportunity?

Long in short: ballistic rockets burn and their engines work under the sea?

Hi

Personally I don't see any useful need for trg-300 to be launched from submarine , the submarine VLS technology is a very hard and expensive to manufacture , It's better to be used with much useful long range cruise missile or SLMB .

and regarding your question about the engine , here is a good video about submarines and you find your answer at 7:30 . the other video is a demonstration of that compressed air technology by the American Trident II missile

 

[TheInsider]

The bomb came in at quite a shallow angle, which makes it harder to hit a particular point on the ground plane because the apparent vertical size of the ground plane decreases with approach angle. A moving target like a tank would rise up above the ground plane, making it much easier to hit when the bomb has a shallow approach angle like this.

Because it is tested at its maximum range so the bomb approached its target at a lower angle.

Launching TRG-300 from underwater is not worth the effort. Submarine-launched TRG-300 will have a range of 150km at best.

 

[Bogeyman]

Underwater Guided Projectile Firing Ability Gain

İbrahim SUNNETCI

Today, it is launched from a submarine using two different launch platforms, the G/M Vertical Launcher (VLS) and the Torpedo Sleeve. While the VLS concept is a cost and somewhat weight-increasing option in submarine design, it offers the user the ability to carry/fire a greater quantity and variety of guided missiles or cruise missiles. From the 1970s to the present, two basic concepts have been implemented for Firing from the Torpedo Sleeve: a capsule with a propulsion system or a floating capsule without a propulsion system.
The SM-39 Exocet G/M is loaded into the submarine in a waterproof, shockproof, homing underwater vehicle (VSM, capsule) with a rocket engine on the back and thrust through a 533mm (21 pus) diameter torpedo tube at a depth of 50-60m (which For this, there must be a positive discharge type equipment in the hive) is thrown.

View attachment 51736
Surface exit of the SM-39 Exocet Guided Missile with the VSM capsule and leaving the capsule...

After leaving the hive, the VSM, which moves towards the water surface with a certain speed and angle, starts the rocket engine when it approaches the water surface. After taking off about 15-20m from the sea surface, the forward cover is removed and the SM39 Exocet G/M, which starts the rocket engine, leaves the capsule at an altitude of about 30m and heads towards its target. According to open sources, VSM reduces the risk of detecting the location of the submarine since it is launched from a depth of approximately 50-60m from the submarine below the periscope depth and travels in the water for a while after the launch.

View attachment 51737
MdCN exits underwater with capsule and then leaves capsule

The same concept is used in the submarine-launched version of the Naval Cruise Missile/NCM/MdCN, which is also a MBDA product.
View attachment 51738
The moment when the MdCN/NCM Missile emerges from underwater with the capsule

The Encapsulated Harpoon (UGM-84) Guided Missile, which is also in the inventory of the Turkish Naval Forces, is launched from a 533mm diameter torpedo tube in a floating capsule without any propulsion system (electric or rocket engine) at periscope depth. After exiting the hive, the two folded balance flaps (fins) on the back of the capsule are released/open, and the capsule, which travels through the water at a certain angle with the effect of completely static hydrodynamic forces, starts a stable static pitching maneuver after a while with the breakage of the control surfaces. As a result, the nose part of the capsule rises to the water surface at a certain angle, while the tail part is separated and the nose part of the capsule is launched by a small rocket.

View attachment 51739
View attachment 51740
UGM-84 Encapsulated Harpoon capsule interior section and exterior view..



The UGM-84 Harpoon leaves the capsule, starting the G/M turbojet engine. According to open sources, after leaving the capsule, the Harpoon G/M first climbs to 600m and then descends to its target. In this concept, the launch point of G/M is limited to the place where the submarine is located. It is also claimed that in this concept, the risk of detecting the location of the submarine is higher after the launch (due to both the capsule coming to the surface near the launch point and the 600m altitude of the G/M).

In Turkiye, Roketsan and TÜBİTAK SAGE are working on underwater guided missile firing capability. Unlike the SM-39 VSM and UGM-84 capsules, on the New Generation Long Range G/M Capsule, for which Roketsan still continues its concept/development studies using its own resources, the control propulsion system, battery, mission computer, inertial measurement unit and propulsion system [electrical engine]. In fact, the New Generation G/M Capsule, which will be a long-range torpedo capsule, will advance to the target very slowly and silently after leaving the hive, and will suddenly come to the surface at the desired point.

View attachment 51741

Carrying out the Roketsan AKYA National Heavy Torpedo and ORKA Light Torpedo Projects, ROKETSAN made a presentation titled 'Next Generation Torpedo Systems' at the 'Emerging Technologies in the Naval Defense Industry Workshop' held at the Rahmi Koç Museum Conference Hall on March 8, 2017. They shared striking information about the capabilities and usage concept of the [G/M] Capsule.

In the presentation, attention was drawn to the fact that the New Generation G/M Capsule is actually a torpedo capsule, and it was underlined that Roketsan's experience in the torpedo field is being carried to the capsule level. The purpose is; It was summarized as "to move the capsule away from the submarine like a torpedo so that it stays safely at a distance without having to get too close to the target." In order to avoid the risk of capturing the submarine, it was aimed that the capsule would be able to move away from the submarine like a torpedo, approach the target, and then come to the surface at the desired point and launch a G/M. This capability was expected to lead to changes in G/M related requirements as well. In this way, the difficulties required by a very long-range G/M, both in terms of project and technique, could be eliminated to some extent. Because in this way, the need for exceeding the long range would have been met through the capsule to a large extent.

The advantages of the New Generation G/M Capsule were listed as follows:

• Protecting the secrecy of the submarine (which would also contribute to the protection of the secrecy of the submarine as it could be launched from deeper than the capsules still in use and would surface far from the launch point).
• Optimal use of the theater.
• Sudden Strike ability (the pod would move very slowly and silently to the target and appear out of nowhere).
• Limited reaction time (for the other party).
• Underwater/overwater trajectory/concept optimization.
At that time, Roketsan also launched Torpedo Payload Concepts (in the first stage, studies were being carried out on an optical system integrated into the torpedo), RamJet engine technologies (works were underway to switch from subsonic speed to hypersonic speed), and Super Cavity Torpedo (Conceptual Design Phase), which was also initiated as an equity project. was working on)

In the presentation made during the 10th Naval Systems Seminar held by Roketsan in November 2021, it was noted that the capsule system can be preferred both for the use of air defense missiles from submarines and when using missiles against land targets from submarines.

View attachment 51742

TÜBİTAK SAGE, another player in our country working on underwater guided missile firing capability, implemented Turkiye's first submarine test infrastructure, DATA, in June 2022 and started firing tests with a test capsule (Encapsulated Harpoon capsule). As a test platform, DATA can test and simulate submarine munitions without the need for a submarine.

View attachment 51743

DATA, which will enable the testing of submarine munitions without being connected to a submarine, has been developed in the same way as the launch system from the shell in GÜR and PREVEZE Class Submarines. DATA, which offers the opportunity to shoot up to a depth of 60 meters under water, can also be controlled from the land. An infrastructure where all guided missile systems fired from submarine to air, land or sea surface can be easily tested without the need for a submarine, including the versions of DATA, ATMACA and GEZGİN Guided Missiles to be used from submarines. The system, which has a 21-inch standard submarine shell, ensures that test firings are carried out under the same conditions as submarines, but in a safer, faster and lower cost manner.

View attachment 51744
View attachment 51745
View attachment 51746
View attachment 51747

Encapsulated Harpoon was written on the floating test capsule used in the short video shared about the shooting test with DATA.

Frames from the submarine firing test of the BGM-109 Tomahawk Cruise Missile;

View attachment 51748
View attachment 51749

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Are there any research by Turkish Navy launching TRG-300 from under the sea?

Because launching ballistic missiles from frigate is too risky as it causes fire hazard.

For launch of cruise missiles they use special canister. İf ballistic rocket engines run in the water why not use this opportunity?

Long in short: ballistic rockets burn and their engines work under the sea?

The answer you are looking for on the subject may be in this article. I recommend you read.

 

[UkroTurk]

The answer you are looking for on the subject may be in this article. I recommend you read.

İ read the article but those abbravations puzzled me.

So Turkish Navy is searching the VLS ability from subs?

And my second question: theoritically can you ignite" trg300"under the water and its rocket engine could work under the water?

İ am not speaking about capsulated cruise missiles.

Let's imagine: you put naked and uncapsulated TRG300 into the torpedo slave then could you launch and send it?

 

[Bogeyman]

İ read the article but those abbravations puzzled me.

So Turkish Navy is searching the VLS ability from subs?

And my second question: theoritically can you ignite" trg300"under the water and its rocket engine could work under the water?

İ am not speaking about capsulated cruise missiles.

Let's imagine: you put naked and uncapsulated TRG300 into the torpedo slave then could you launch and send it?

It would be a bit of an exaggeration to make such an expectation for submarines, while the Turkish navy has not yet added the TRG-300 to its designs for sea-to-land attack on warships.

 

[UkroTurk]

It would be a bit of an exaggeration to make such an expectation for submarines, while the Turkish navy has not yet added the TRG-300 to its designs for sea-to-land attack on warships.

Launching ballistic missiles either rockets from surface ship is very dangerous. IMHO that's why any navy launch SRBMs from ships. İt causes a load of fire.

Even exhaust of a slim ESSM SAM could burn whole destroyer

Buuuut when you are under the water there won't be dangerous.

Need to find the picture of testbad of how first time SRBMs launched.

IMHO they should test it.

 

[Bogeyman]

Launching ballistic missiles either rockets from surface ship is very dangerous. IMHO that's why any navy launch SRBMs from ships. İt causes a load of fire.

Even exhaust of a slim ESSM SAM could burn whole destroyer

Buuuut when you are under the water there won't be dangerous.

Need to find the picture of testbad of how first time SRBMs launched.

IMHO they should test it.

View attachment 51826

Actually, we can use cold launch technology here. But I don't think there was an example before.

 

[Yasar_TR]

İ read the article but those abbravations puzzled me.

So Turkish Navy is searching the VLS ability from subs?

And my second question: theoritically can you ignite" trg300"under the water and its rocket engine could work under the water?

İ am not speaking about capsulated cruise missiles.

Let's imagine: you put naked and uncapsulated TRG300 into the torpedo slave then could you launch and send it?

When you have a limited number of torpedo tubes ( 8 to be precise - 4 of them harpoon/atmaca capable) and very limited spares due to restricted space, you really need to have weapons with a lot of clout.
Although TRG-300 is a very capable weapon in it’s own right, it is no match when compared to Atmaca missiles or Akya torpedoes. (Or Gezgin Cruise missile that is still in incognito.)
TRG-300 is a cheap missile with limited range when launched from surface. it’s destructive capability is no match either.
When you have a strategic platform like a submarine in your hand you really need to use your best weapons.

 

[Bogeyman]

When you have a limited number of torpedo tubes ( 8 to be precise - 4 of them harpoon/atmaca capable) and very limited spares due to restricted space, you really need to have weapons with a lot of clout.
Although TRG-300 is a very capable weapon in it’s own right, it is no match when compared to Atmaca missiles or Akya torpedoes. (Or Gezgin Cruise missile that li still in incognito.)
TRG-300 is a cheap missile with limited range when launched from surface. it’s destructive capability is no match either.
When you have a strategic platform like a submarine in your hand you really need to use your best weapons.

It can actually be a good alternative if you want to create projections of attack from sea to land of mini submarines.

 

[Quasar]

you should roughly x2 the size and displacement of a standart Type 214 to build a sub to have for instance 6 VLS cells for 6 SLBM like in the case of South Korean KSS III... SLBM has its true meaning as a second strike capability i.e nuclear retaliaton