TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[GoatsMilk]

what is the accuracy of the Tayfun? Because the major problem with the iranian ballistic missiles used against isreal they really served no strategic value due to low accuracy and were mainly launched on cities hitting civilian structures. Are these able to directly target say air defence systems?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm reminded of the scramjet article in Roketsan magazine. Therefore, we may have developed a hypersonic glide vehicle capable of reaching altitude with a ballistic missile. Claiming to be a scramjet requires that the average cruise speed be hypersonic once the engine is running. Indeed, when the Tayfun Block-4 was mentioned, it was assumed that the missile would be hypersonic. Normally, such a definition isn't used for ballistic missiles based on maximum cruise speed. Therefore, I hope we develop an HGV and add it to the inventory.

Bro, reading above doesn’t make sense.
You are showing CRDE details and talking about scramjet.
Then you are talking about hypersonic and ballistic missiles.

Can you please explain in depth what you mean?

Ballistic missiles like Bora, Tayfun reach hyoersonic speeds during their flights. (Mainly in midcourse)
Yet ICBMs are hyoersonic all the way.
Where as a Bora may hit target with 1.5 Mach , an ICBM may hit target with 8-10 Mach.
Bora may fly hypersonic for a very short time. Yet Tayfun B4 may fly most of its trajectory in hypersonic speed. But still hit target at high supersonic.

 

[CAN_TR]

what is the accuracy of the Tayfun? Because the major problem with the iranian ballistic missiles used against isreal they really served no strategic value due to low accuracy and were mainly launched on cities hitting civilian structures. Are these able to directly target say air defence systems?

It hit the target bullseye, so it's safe to say less then 10m.

 

[Bogeyman]

Bro, reading above doesn’t make sense.
You are showing CRDE details and talking about scramjet.
Then you are talking about hypersonic and ballistic missiles.

Can you please explain in depth what you mean?

Ballistic missiles like Bora, Tayfun reach hyoersonic speeds during their flights. (Mainly in midcourse)
Yet ICBMs are hyoersonic all the way.
Where as a Bora may hit target with 1.5 Mach , an ICBM may hit target with 8-10 Mach.
Bora may fly hypersonic for a very short time. Yet Tayfun B4 may fly most of its trajectory in hypersonic speed. But still hit target at high supersonic.

The image shows a cruise speed of 1500-2500 m/sec. This falls between the high supersonic and hypersonic ranges. I'm guessing the ballistic missile ignites its scramjet engine in the second stage after reaching an altitude of 50 km+. We don't have the power to launch an HGV like the Russians, which dives from a Sarmat ICBM. We don't have any ballistic missiles with such a long range. Therefore, it makes more sense to launch into space with a conventional engine and handle the remaining critical phase with a scramjet engine. Furthermore, hybrid rocket technology can't carry twice the payload of an average ballistic missile.


WHAT IS A RDE?

A Rotating Detonation Engine (RDE) is essentially a more compact and efficient method of creating thrust for a wide variety of military relevant systems. These mechanically simple engines have no moving parts making them less complex than gas turbine engines and therefore potentially lower cost and simpler to manufacture.

RDEs rapidly burn fuel via a supersonically travelling detonation wave; this in turn delivers high performance in a small volume. This volume savings can be used to increase fuel and/or payload volume providing potential range, speed and affordability benefits compared to rockets, ramjets and gas-turbines.

This rapidly developing technology enables a wide range of military applications including air-to-ground, air-to-air and surface weapons. Building on sustained Air Force and Navy investment, current research is targeted at expeditiously transitioning truly disruptive effects to the warfighter.

It is possible to leverage a detonation wave in systems from ground power to turbine engines, ram/scramjets and rockets. Each of these systems, benefits from a reduced volume/mass and an increased performance.

The illustration to left and described below is for the simplest of applications a rotating detonation ramjet:

• Composed of 2 coaxial cylinders with gap between
• Fuel & oxidizer continuously flow into annular gap
• Detonation travels around annulus & burns mixture
  • Delivering extremely compact heat release
  • Increasing pressure and cycle efficiency without mechanically complex rotating machinery
• Products leave nozzle axially creating thrust

Military relevance of RDE ramjets is enhanced by:

• Simple design potential enables production at rates necessary for mass weapon employment
• High-speed detonation wave delivers continuous thrust and minimizes integration challenges

Air-to-ground weapons

• RDE powered weapons have the potential to provide a clear advantage to our military:
• Range, survivability, loadout and payload that enhances legacy platform utility in near peer fight
• High-speed standoff with better loadout and versatility
• Compatible on a wide range of platforms
• Price point that delivers affordable destruction of high-value, time-sensitive targets and mass effects
• Addresses SECAF air dominance, moving target engagement and long-range strike Operational Imperatives (OI)

WHY ARE RDE IMPORTANT TO WARFIGHTER?

As stated earlier, rotating detonation can be employed in a wide range of engine configurations including in ramjets, rockets and gas turbines. The discussion here will center on two applications of the RDE ramjet illustrated on page 1.

Both internally and externally carried munitions are constrained in overall dimension and launch mass by several factors including associated weapons platforms, ground handling equipment and logistical concerns. The small volume for the RDE combustor allows critical volume to be applied to fuel and payload.

ROTATING DETONATION ENGINES (RDE) | Air Force Research Laboratory

afresearchlab.com

This is how the US defines the technology we work with

 

[Kaan Azman]

ROKETSAN revised PUSU to be a literal swiss knife to be honest

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1947761753669980312

 

[Pokemonte13]

ROKETSAN revised PUSU to be a literal swiss knife to be honest

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1947761753669980312

This is against ground targets as well as larger drones like shahed style thats why the changed the designator to track fast moving targets

 

[Bogeyman]

The R&D department of the Ministry of National Defense announced that it has developed an air-to-air missile.

The second missile on the back says "air-to-air" and "air defense missile".

 

[Pokemonte13]

View attachment 76604

The R&D department of the Ministry of National Defense announced that it has developed an air-to-air missile.

The second missile on the back says "air-to-air" and "air defense missile".

60km range 122 Artillery rocket? got it a smaller warhead?

 

[Barry]

Sensational developments.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'm guessing the ballistic missile ignites its scramjet engine in the second stage after reaching an altitude of 50 km+.

Bro you have mixed different technologies and made a concoction out of it. (In Turkish a Çorba)

First of all CRDE is a technology that is not used by any missile or platform yet. Only recently did they manage to apply it to test platforms. There is still a long road ahead. First it will be adaptive bypass engines then CRDE.

Ballistic missiles don’t have scramjet engines. They are either solid or liquid fuelled. Or they are hybrid which use one stage with solid fuel, another with liquid fuel.

Scramjet engines are air breathing engines and they do not work in Space.

Ballistic missiles are thrusted up towards the space like a giant firework to follow a specific trajectory. When they reach their apogee or just before or just after, their engine cuts out. They start losing speed and they start to fall towards earth in a “ballistic” trajectory. That is when their speed increase until they reach dense atmosphere around 20-15 km in altitude. Then their speed start to decrease. The heavier they are and the more aerodynamic they are, the less they lose their speed.

A SRBM like Tayfun is solid fuelled. But these are quasi ballistic missiles. In other words their trajectories are suppressed. They do not go high enough to enter space. They may level out between 50K to 70K altitude and fall down to earth from there following a predetermined ballistic trajectory. MRBMs enter space.

We don't have the power to launch an HGV like the Russians, which dives from a Sarmat ICBM. We don't have any ballistic missiles with such a long range. Therefore, it makes more sense to launch into space with a conventional engine and handle the remaining critical phase with a scramjet engine. Furthermore, hybrid rocket technology can't carry twice the payload of an average ballistic missile

Hypersonic Glide Vehicles do not have engines to propel them. They are taken high in to space by a ballistic missile and released at great velocities to glide down to earth.
Since scramjet won’t work in space, you can’t do what you are suggesting.
A conventional engine for space flight is the type of engines used in Tayfun or Hybrid Delta V rocket. We as Türkiye, don’t yet have the technology to do that.

Hybrid Rocket technology is the main technology that will carry heavier weights in to space. It is still a ballistic missile tech. Space shuttle and some Ariane missiles use solid fuel as propellant. But it is usually liquid fuel that is used for space flight.

 

[TheInsider]

NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948003902516776977

 

[boredaf]

NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948003902516776977

What the fuck did they make this from, adamantium? This is an insane performance. To give it some more context, MOP (massive ordinance penetrator) US used on Iranian facilities can reportedly penetrate about 18 meters of reinforced concrete, while weighing 15 times more than NEB.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948003902516776977

Wow, that's a huge difference. Congratz to the Turkish engineers.

 

[Nurhak40]

NEB penetrated 7m C50 concrete reinforced with 25mm ribbed steel on top of that penetrated additional concrete block weighing 1.5 tonnes in tests executed in HABRAS test area.

NEB penetrated 90m of rocky area in real-world tests deployed from a fighter aircraft.

Similar US weapons can penetrate 1.8m to 2.4m reinforced concrete.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948003902516776977

Serious question, can these kinds of neb bombs also be implemented in ballistic missiles as warhead? Like intead of dropping from planes but putting it on missiles as warheads. Like you have a hostile nation who you cannot come closer to with airplanes but you can however saturate its airdefences by number of ballistic missiles to destroy its fortified airfield?
You guys know who i talk about and its fortified airbases.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Serious question, can these kinds of neb bombs also be implemented in ballistic missiles as warhead? Like intead of dropping from planes but putting it on missiles as warheads. Like you have a hostile nation who you cannot come closer to with airplanes but you can however saturate its airdefences by number of ballistic missiles to destroy its fortified airfield?
You guys know who i talk about and its fortified airbases.

Ballistic missile are not that precise or you need to fire like 10 or so on the same target secondly fortified airbases? You can destroy the runway with regular HE warheads but the aircraft bunker would be difficult to hit but honestly I would just spam them on ad sites with high Fragmentation warheads and on runways that would leave the airspace exposed

 

[Yasar_TR]

SSB, ASELSAN, and ROKETSAN signed a significant cooperation agreement for the security of the Sky Homeland.

As part of the IDEF 2025 International Defense Industry Fair, a contract was signed for the development of the AESA Seeker (AGRAS 3101/AA) and the Missile-Borne Data Link for the GÖKBORA Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile System.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1948034091325989142

Now I am going to play the devil’s advocate.
1. This means that the Gokbora has not flown yet. Even if it has, it hasn’t flown to hit a target.
2. There is still quite a bit of work to be done. If Aselsan takes its time to develop a seeker head, then the missile’s readiness will be delayed significantly.
3. We were waiting for a liquid/gel fuelled Gökhan, which was tested and almost ready to be part of the inventory. Instead they gave us a meteor equivalent solid fuelled Gokbora. This was either because the Gökhan wasn’t ready or the top brass preferred the meteor equivalent.

In all honesty, gokbora is the logical choice. But it should have been that, from day 1.

 

[TheInsider]

Serious question, can these kinds of neb bombs also be implemented in ballistic missiles as warhead? Like intead of dropping from planes but putting it on missiles as warheads. Like you have a hostile nation who you cannot come closer to with airplanes but you can however saturate its airdefences by number of ballistic missiles to destroy its fortified airfield?
You guys know who i talk about and its fortified airbases.

Yes. It is possible but only big ballistic missiles can carry a 2000lb payload. Tayfun Block 4, for example, might be a candidate for it. The range of the Tayfun block 1 will be severely reduced if a 2,000-pound warhead is attached to it. Tayfun Block 1 carries a 1000lbs class warhead.

 

[TheInsider]

Now I am going to play the devil’s advocate.
1. This means that the Gokbora has not flown yet. Even if it has, it hasn’t flown to hit a target.
2. There is still quite a bit of work to be done. If Aselsan takes its time to develop a seeker head, then the missile’s readiness will be delayed significantly.
3. We were waiting for a liquid/gel fuelled Gökhan, which was tested and almost ready to be part of the inventory. Instead they gave us a meteor equivalent solid fuelled Gokbora. This was either because the Gökhan wasn’t ready or the top brass preferred the meteor equivalent.

In all honesty, gokbora is the logical choice. But it should have been that, from day 1.

Akbaba has flown with the solid fuel ramjet engine and is very close to its first delivery. Those missiles will use a similar engine if not the same engine. Aselsan will deliver AESA seeker of Gökhan in 2026. Seeker of the Gökbora will be a variant of Gökhan seeker if not the same. Sage and Roketsan are in competition. SANs don't like SAGE developing its own products and selling them like a company. They want SAGE to act as an R&D agency and doesn't want SAGE in the business/trade part as they think SAGE is undercutting them. MSB and SSB are also in a competition. SANs and private companies also have bumpy relations. SANs also have problems with each other.

 

[TheInsider]

It is shared in the past, but it is good to remind again.


Deliveries in 2025
Drone FOPRAD Forest Penetrating Radar
Alper II Naval pulsed LPI navigation Radar
Orta Menzilli STR Medium Range Weapon Locating Radar
Mobil Radar/Kule Mobile and Tower-based Air Traffic Control Radar
Siper UMRAB (Uzun Menzilli Radar Arayıcı Başlık/Long Range Radar Seeker) is for Siper-2. Siper-1 uses an existing Hisar-RF seeker.


Deliveries in 2026
PARS PAsif Radar Sistemi (Passive Radar System)
SEIRS Sabit EIRS (Fixed EIRS)
FULMAR abbreviation for English Frontier UAV Long-range Multi-mission AESA Radar
Gökhan DG. This one is for Gökhan Ramjet A-A Missile. DG probably means Dual Guidance
Yarı Aktif AB Yarı Aktif Arayıcı Başlık (Semi Active Seeker) for a low-cost A-A missile. This one will be used for a cheap missile for an Iron Dome like system. Some land-based systems will also use this to engage targets in a cost-effective way
MMU Burun Radarı KAAN's Nose Radar
Milli Hibrit HSS National Hybrid Air Defense System (Radars of Gürz Variants There are several Gürz Variants)
METRAD C C band Meteorology Radar

 

[Anmdt]

Is that's why they changed the CEO/Director or the reason why the CEO/Director left SAGE?

Dynamics of AKP is far more tangled than the country's. It is hard to explain it by simply that reason. Okumuş left along with Varank. Change of the wind - change of the hand.

SAGE and Tubitak ILTAREN was always meant to be an R&D agency for what other companies may not specialize or invest in. They have grown plenty of people that migrated to 'SAN'. But those SANs, along with those immigrants have set sail into SAGE does, attempting to render it useless - and Okumuş made a great move by stepping up the game and getting the permit for production - instead of licensing. Costed him his seat.