TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Hexciter]

I’m expecting a naval air defence missile that can fit into Gabya class’s (ex-Perry) ROTARY launchers which can fire Standard-MR & Harpoon (~34 cm dia & ~4.6-4.7 m length with folding wings)

 

[Anmdt]

I’m expecting a naval air defence missile that can fit into Gabya class’s (ex-Perry) ROTARY launchers which can fire Standard-MR & Harpoon (~34 cm dia & ~4.6-4.7 m length with folding wings)

Those ships and launchers are beyond of their operational life, we won't need those once a missile has been developed or adopted on naval platforms.

It makes more sense to accelerate TF-2000 with Full CAFRAD to be commissioned before 2030 , and TF100 with CARRAD MFR and single face rotating UMR before 2026.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Any one knows the diameter of Hisar missiles?

Maybe some of our guys here can calculate it from this drawing.

 

[Yasar_TR]

How has G40 not yet been requested?! We need an ESSM replacement going forward. This project should have been greenlit in 2019 already.

I too , can not understand how the G40 has not been requested by the the Turkish navy.
We know that there is a good stock of ESSM in the inventory. But the new ships with MDAS or EDAS will not be able to use ESSM. Since US is not selling MK41 VLS either, we have no choice but use our own VLS. Hence we have to have the G40 missiles. Unless there is some other reason that we are not aware of, G40 is the way forward.
In fact I would like to see a G40-ER or G40 block 2 being developed as well.

 

[Spook]

Companies with names that end with -SAN try to take everything. It's a big problem in defense industry. There has to be a lot more organization with this limited budget. Roketsan is probably overtaking G40 with a Hisar based solution for point defense. We have to wait and see how the situation would developed

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Companies with names that end with -SAN try to take everything. It's a big problem in defense industry. There has to be a lot more organization with this limited budget. Roketsan is probably overtaking G40 with a Hisar based solution for point defense. We have to wait and see how the situation would developed

without these companies, we wouldn't have a defence industry to begin with.

 

[Spook]

without these companies, we wouldn't have a defence industry to begin with.

Organization has to improve. With limited budget and time frame. State-owned companies, private companies, institutions etc. have to cooperate a lot better with each other. Stupid contract processes/politics. Lack of knowledge flows between companies. Lack of higher education institutions being involvement in R&D etc etc.

For example, project had been delayed as an engineering problems occurred. A company X worked for 5 months to find a solution. Turns out company Y had similar problem before and solved it. The solution that delays the project 5 months could had been solved, save budget and time. But there is no communication or cooperation between companies X and Y.

 

[Anmdt]

Organization has to improve. With limited budget and time frame. State-owned companies, private companies, institutions etc. have to cooperate a lot better with each other. Stupid contract processes/politics. Lack of knowledge flows between companies. Lack of higher education institutions being involvement in R&D etc etc.

For example, project had been delayed as an engineering problems occurred. A company X worked for 5 months to find a solution. Turns out company Y had similar problem before and solved it. The solution that delays the project 5 months could had been solved, save budget and time. But there is no communication or cooperation between companies X and Y.

It is not a matter of know-how transfer, those "companies" avoid working on a same project unless it is imposed from above, they are practically a rival of each other and they tend to duplicate products at certain projects, intentionally.

Those companies have shareholders, management board and a CEO while SAGE,as an institution lacks those and lacks a financial goal, those companies relies on profits to pay salaries while SAGE doesn't. All profit/income SAGE makes return either as an infrastructure or more personnel, while income of companies are shared among shareholders.

If Tubitak dedicates entire personnel on G40-like missile they loose nothing,If Roketsan does the same they start to loose customers and delay other deliveries, thus roketsan keeps lobbying hisar-O RF to Turkish Navy, getting a heat start on VLS again by lobbying, skipping all innovation concerns and focusing on what they can get their on, ie. Mk41, and study it to make a VLS.

While SAGE can study on concepts from scratch and create more valuable solutions which fits better. And at this point Roketsan, with profit concerns, tries to rival SAGE.

That is why SAGE can finalize concepts and projects much faster than Roketsan does, and SAGE openly collaborates with any company while those "-SAN" companies avoid working with each other but SAGE. SAGE is more open for innovation while Roketsan avoids it unless needed or required.

 

[Nutuk]

Companies with names that end with -SAN try to take everything. It's a big problem in defense industry. There has to be a lot more organization with this limited budget. Roketsan is probably overtaking G40 with a Hisar based solution for point defense. We have to wait and see how the situation would developed

That's a bit strange to put it this way as Tubitak is not a production company but an R&D company / institute.

Tubitak develops, companies like Roketsan, MKEK will produce. They are not competition but cooperating companies.

 

[TheInsider]

Istif class will move with MIDLAS and Hisar-based solutions. Hisar-O+(IIR), Hisar-RF, and probably a new missile between Hisar-RF and Siper which was announced by Mr. Ismail Demir. Hisar-O+ and Hisar-RF might be quadpackable as they are similar to ESSM in size.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

But there is no communication or cooperation between companies X and Y.

There are no competitors to "-SAN" institutes in Turkey. These institutes are the backbone of Turkish defence industry. The technological fields and their area of expertises are totally different from eachothers as well. Besides, Tubitak MAM/SAGE/UMEI/RUTE/BILGEM all are technology developers and As a result of their field of activities, they have close contact with "-San" institutes at almost all projects. Since Tubitak aren't a production company, They are sharing their advanced technologies or know-how to the largest defence institutes wirking in same field to improve the capabilities of them and this strategy improves the competitiveness of Turkish institutes against foreign rivals. The technologies that are gained by these -san institutes are also distributed to thousands of certified subcontractors that are producing for them. In 2020, the percentage of total orders that Turkish small scale certified subcontractors were charged reached to %70 of total Aselsan's orders. TAI is working with OSTIM and creating a special production center called " Kazan Havacılık Kümelenmesi" to collect thousands of small scale qualified institutes that are going to produce many components for TAI's current and future programs. By this way, the development and technological maturation are spread vertical and horizontally among big and small scale institutes and companies.

 

[Brave Janissary]

Guys how your feels about Barbaros Track 2 Mlu's with Tozkoparan and Essm/G-40

Main Search Radar: S Band Smart-S Mk-2 250 km
Air Defence MFR Radar: Mar-D X Band 100 Km
Air Defence Carriage :
32x Tozkoparan 100 Km range 20 km alttitude
32x G-40/Essm 40-50 km range 12 km alttitude.
1x Phalanx
1x Gökdeniz

Good stop gap air defence frigates until 7 Tf-2000 I think. On the other hand we have only 2 barbaros who have 16 vls capability. Also Tcg İstanbul can be good supporter to track 2's with his 16x vls and brand new Cenk aesa Mfr radar.

Track 1's and yavuz class 6 frigates can be good Asuw frigates for this 3 Aaw and also 3 of 4 milgems can be good Asw supporter to this 3 Aaw

 

[Oublious]

So the question is what is Navy thinking, they should hurry up and chose a missile. Hisar-O RF or G-40 other whis I class will not be operational.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

These missiles have their own pros/minus. G40 will be a fast reaction missile with divert attitude thrusters and soft launch tech but Its planned altittude was announced as 40000ft which is lower than Rf Hisar. If we spare 4 cell of 16 cell MIDLAS to G40, This will make total 16 G40 missiles in I class. Modular structure of G40 will provide great advantages.

However, Hisar-O+Rf is designed to fill the altitude gap between Hisar-O+(15km) and Hisar-U/Tozkoparan (?) (20km). I don't have any info about packing structure of Rf missiles inside domestic VLS but If Hisar-Rf is planned as a quad pack, this will be impressive as well and give enough reason TN to eliminate G40. Hisar-Rf is a hot-launch missile, but because of the fact that I have mentioned, I suppose it will have a better altitude climb feature up to 60000ft-18km. Rf missile can provide a no-fly zone to any advanced fighter jet. If Hisar-Rf don't have quad pack feature, then Navy will need G40 missiles drastically.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

32x Tozkoparan 100 Km range 20 km alttitude
32x G-40/Essm 40-50 km range 12 km alttitude.

64 missiles would be enough to make enemy think twice before taking off for a strike mission.

 

[Turko]

If Hisar O+/Tozkoparan is not fit quadpack, the missile could be double pack.

There was a project related with SM-2 IIR.

32 G40 + 16 Hisar-O+ is also good combination.

 

[Yasar_TR]

These missiles have their own pros/minus. G40 will be a fast reaction missile with divert attitude thrusters and soft launch tech but Its planned altittude was announced as 40000ft which is lower than Rf Hisar. If we spare 4 cell of 16 cell MIDLAS to G40, This will make total 16 G40 missiles in I class. Modular structure of G40 will provide great advantages.

However, Hisar-O+Rf is designed to fill the altitude gap between Hisar-O+(15km) and Hisar-U/Tozkoparan (?) (20km). I don't have any info about packing structure of Rf missiles inside domestic VLS but If Hisar-Rf is planned as a quad pack, this will be impressive as well and give enough reason TN to eliminate G40. Hisar-Rf is a hot-launch missile, but because of the fact that I have mentioned, I suppose it will have a better altitude climb feature up to 60000ft-18km. Rf missile can provide a no-fly zone to any advanced fighter jet. If Hisar-Rf don't have quad pack feature, then Navy will need G40 missiles drastically.

Very logical line of thoughts! To add;
By reading between the lines of what Mr Gurcan Okumus was talking about G40, and the way he hesitated and mentioned that the G40 was not contracted to be produced, I can’t help but think that the TN is going for MDAS launched Hisar RF and may be in conjunction with 100km ranged Tozkoparan . These 2 missiles will be the outright choice of the Navy if they can be quad packed as well.
But The Hisar missile, with it’s shape and size seems bigger than an ESSM. If the picture and the sizes given in below chart, is anything to go by, the Hisar O missile is 4.5 m tall and 30cm diameter missile. Now if that doesn’t fit in to a quad pack, then it will fit in to a dual pack.

 

[Philip the Arab]

Very logical line of thoughts! To add;
By reading between the lines of what Mr Gurcan Okumus was talking about G40, and the way he hesitated and mentioned that the G40 was not contracted to be produced, I can’t help but think that the TN is going for MDAS launched Hisar RF and may be in conjunction with 100km ranged Tozkoparan . These 2 missiles will be the outright choice of the Navy if they can be quad packed as well.
But The Hisar missile, with it’s shape and size seems bigger than an ESSM. If the picture and the sizes given in below chart, is anything to go by, the Hisar O missile is 4.5 m tall and 30cm diameter missile. Now if that doesn’t fit in to a quad pack, then it will fit in to a dual pack.
View attachment 21501

Just noticed how it seems Turkish missiles are a lot heavier and thiccer than missiles with similar ranges, why is that?

 

[Zafer]

Just noticed how it seems Turkish missiles are a lot heavier and thiccer than missiles with similar ranges, why is that?

If that is actually the case it maybe attributed to the fact that they are based on locally produced parts and the national industry is still making the initial iterations of the systems. My guess is that particularly the fuell is not as energetic as some of the competition therefore more of it need to be used. A couple iterations down the road they will likely be on par with their peers as development of better components are underway.

 

[Siper>MMU]

Hisar RF has lower diameter than O+, also with smaller wings. Naval version of it probably can be quadpacked. Dualpacking a missile don't worth the effort.