TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Anmdt]

The foldable fin of GÖKSUR was tested in the Ankara Wind Tunnel.

An important test phase related to ASELSAN's Autonomous Close-Range Air Defense Missile System, named GÖKSUR, was carried out in the Ankara Wind Tunnel.

Currently developed by ASELSAN for ship platforms, GÖKSUR will provide air defense using TÜBİTAK SAGE’s BOZDOĞAN-DH missile.

Tested in the Ankara Wind Tunnel

The foldable fin within-visual-range missile model developed under the project was tested at 0.2 Mach speed with different angles of attack, yaw, elevator, aileron, and rudder using the model movement system and a 6-component internal balance in the Ankara Wind Tunnel.

According to information shared by the TÜBİTAK SAGE team, four pressure measurements were taken from the cavity behind the model to perform axial force correction caused by the holding arm.

The scans were conducted continuously as angle of attack scans and yaw angle scans. Measurements were completed in 13 out of a total of 361 scan tests. A total of 15 different control surface angles were used in the tests.

First exhibited at IDEF’23

Specially developed for naval platforms, GÖKSUR was first exhibited at IDEF'23 held last year. The system was specifically designed for naval platforms.

The system uses the BOZDOĞAN-DH missile, developed by TÜBİTAK-SAGE and updated according to the air defense needs of naval platforms, as the interceptor missile. The GÖKSUR Close-Range Air Defense Missile System is being developed within a product family concept and offers a solution with three different configurations based on a modular design approach.

The GÖKSUR Close-Range Air Defense Missile System features 360-degree threat elimination capability, new generation IIR seeker guided missile, multiple target interception capability, ability to operate independently and/or integrated with a platform, mid-course guidance with data link, and high single-shot interception probability.

Equivalent to RAM

The system, which will be equivalent to the US-produced RAM System, has the primary task of destroying anti-ship missiles targeting naval platforms in the air. The Turkish Navy has long faced an embargo on the supply of munitions for the US-produced RAM System installed on the MİLGEM ADA Class Corvettes in its inventory.

Roketsan is also conducting studies on the subject within the scope of the LEVENT Project.

GÖKSUR’un katlanır kanatçığı Ankara Rüzgar Tüneli’nde test edildi – Tolga Özbek

tolgaozbek.com

It's still not clear whether it's Göksur or Levent that will take a place on the naval platforms. Both companies are continuing development, with TN using 3D models of Roketsan's launcher. Aselsan & Tubitak are more than just a step ahead, the launcher should be ready by the end of this year, and they have designed (concept) a wider range of applications for the missile and launcher system. They are also studying a VL version for certain applications, if I am not mistaken.

in a way I agree and seems that Bozdoğan DH may one step ahead?... yet eventhough I may ask for too much I hope both missiles find their places by time, in any case studies on Levent missile is a worthy attempt and definitly important as well IMO

I believe it is far superior in terms of agility, acceleration, target acquisition (as it benefits from being an A2A missile) but this all comes at a cost, it is heavy and requires a winch for installation and at least 4/5 men and a trolley. Logistically, it can be stored in smaller quantities and has a cumbersome reloading sequence.

While the Levent falls behind in agility and performance, logistically it is quite simple, light and can be handled by 3 people.

If it is a FAC / USV without additional air defence missiles I would prefer Goksur as it can also engage low altitude high speed targets or helis at longer range, while if it is a Corvette and above that needs a higher amount of such missiles I would prefer Levent. On the other hand, Bozdogan DH (Goksur) has a better chance against supersonic/hypersonic missiles.

Roketsan should develop variants of Levent, such as IR - IR beam ride, passive guided RF (illuminated), in addition to the originally planned IIR and IIR+RF. Cirit could have been the cheap C-UAS, but we missed the opportunity, let's try it with Levent as a multi-purpose C-UAS capable of engaging both air and ground threats of various sizes. Half of the anti-ship missiles have no RF guidance anyway, IIR is rising.

 

[TheInsider]

Wouldn't they each have their own functions depending on operational range/engagement range?

I mean you'd launch this first, and have Sungur 12xcannister launcher ready to spray and pray. along with Phallanx or 35mm

No there is a reason why there is no naval AIM-9X. There were sea sparrow based short range naval air defense systems in the past but they were abandoned in favor of RAM and today there are no naval air defense systems based on the predecessor of sea sparrow.

If we try to intercept incoming missiles and UAVs with Bozdoğan we will likely lose that war fast after the first month.

 

[Baryshx]

We need agility and performance. Price and weight are secondary, it is the safety of the ships that matters.

 

[TheInsider]

We need agility and performance. Price and weight are secondary, it is the safety of the ships that matters.

You are talking as if Levent won't have agility and performance. Levent will be an inherently agile missile as it is a lot lighter than Bozdogan. Bozdogan uses some really expensive and exotic subsystems to be agile at that weight. Less mass=more inherent agility, more mass=less inherent agility because accelerating, decelerating, and changing the direction of the moving mass in 3D space is very difficult at high speeds(inertia). You need to use exotic subsystems to counteract that which means an expensive missile.

As I said no one uses AIM-9X instead of RAM and there are good reasons for that.

 

[Baryshx]

You are talking as if Levent won't have agility and performance. Levent will be an inherently agile missile as it is a lot lighter than Bozdogan. Bozdogan uses some really expensive and exotic subsystems to be agile at that weight. Less mass=more inherent agility, more mass=less inherent agility because accelerating, decelerating, and changing the direction of the moving mass in 3D space is very difficult at high speeds(inertia). You need to use exotic subsystems to counteract that which means an expensive missile.

As I said no one uses AIM-9X instead of RAM and there are good reasons for that.

Maybe the US uses AIM-9X and we don't know about it. They use Ram in demonstrations and exercises. And sells Ram to other countries.

 

[UkroTurk]

İf AIM-9x is useless, we should throw Hisar A trashcan
Bozdoğan with data link could waste much more threats than Levent.


I would say Microwave seekers are outdated since IIR antiship missiles are more popular like NSM and SOM.

 

[Anmdt]

Maybe the US uses AIM-9X and we don't know about it. They use Ram in demonstrations and exercises. And sells Ram to other countries.

RAM stems from AIM-9, and hugely benefits from advancements in AIM-9 as well.

 

[Sanchez]

No there is a reason why there is no naval AIM-9X. There were sea sparrow based short range naval air defense systems in the past but they were abandoned in favor of RAM and today there are no naval air defense systems based on the predecessor of sea sparrow.

If we try to intercept incoming missiles and UAVs with Bozdoğan we will likely lose that war fast after the first month.

RAM didn't replace RIM-7s, Sea Sparrow evolved into ESSM and is pretty much added to every single NATO and allied ship today. RIM-7 becoming ESSM is solely down to politics of the air force when they didn't want to further upgrade the Falcon and just went with AIM-120 and retired it, which then the maker argued to the navy for the ESSM upgrade, and rest is history as ESSM became one of the most potent and heavily used SAMs today.

 

[Anmdt]

RAM stems from AIM-9, and hugely benefits from advancements in AIM-9 as well.

For the ones who wonder about history of RAM development, an article by the laboratory who highly involved in the process;

https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/Content/techdigest/pdf/V22-N04/22-04-Elko.pdf

 

[TheInsider]

Bozdoğan is not suitable for missile and UAV interception missions period. When you want your 140kg A-A missile to pull 30-40G maneuvers at mach 3 to 4 your tiny actuators need to produce enough torque to run a car. What we need is a smaller, lighter therefore inherently agile, relatively cheap and mass-produceable missile. Such a missile will be as good as Bozdoğan without its drawbacks.

 

[Afif]

Bozdogan has TVC. It should comfortably pull 50+G while accelerating at high speed.

Look at second, third and fourth interceptions. Outstanding sharp turns.
That is what I am talking about.

 

[TheInsider]

Bozdogan has TVC. It should comfortably pull 50+G while accelerating at high speed.

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers. Fighters are different though. The missile might need to do really sharp maneuvers against a fighter jet in some cases. This is why Bozdoğan is designed that way and this is why only a few countries can design A-A missiles similar to/on par with AIM-9X. And don't forget TVC only works while the engine is burning and the burn time of Bozdoğan is really short.

 

[Afif]

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers.

I am just saying for Bozdogan's actuators pulling high G technically is not an issue. Anyway, in my opinion best CIWS is something like Leonardo's STRALES. Leyered with Sea-RAM.

 

[TheInsider]

I am just saying for Bozdogan's actuators pulling high G technically is not an issue. Anyway, in my opinion best CIWS is something like Leonardo's STRALES. Leyered with Sea-RAM.

It is an issue even the ex-head of Tübitak SAGE Gürcan Okumuş talked about that issue in an interview.

BTW RAM is tested against GQM-163 Coyote test target missile.
Anyone who thinks RAM is worse than AIM-9X when it comes to missile interception should just check what GQM-163 Coyote is.

 

[uçuyorum]

WVR missile like bozdoğan especially has to be made much more maneuverable because the angular velocity of targets at close ranges is much higher. It is a natural fit.

 

[UkroTurk]

RIM-116 has just one advantage: it spins as it is rolling airframe missile .

Spinning helps stabilize the missile's flight path, similar to how a spinning top maintains its balance. This gyroscopic effect reduces deviations caused by external forces.

While the spinning itself doesn't directly make the missile more agile, it contributes to a more stable and predictable flight path. This stability allows for more precise maneuvering when adjustments are needed, which can contribute to overall agility in targeting.

Remember RAM is effective in short range, the RIM-116 wouldn't be effective at longer range as flypath of threat larger.
That's why rim-116 doesn't have data link.
AFAIK Levent won't spin or will. No idea.


Even old Sidewinder is great. Taiwan Navy relies on SeaChapparel against huge enemy.

Imagine as if there were NASAMS launcher loaded with AIM-9x and AESA radar. Which one would you prefer? RAM or this?

 

[Yasar_TR]

RIM-116 has just one advantage: it spins as it is rolling airframe missile .

Spinning helps stabilize the missile's flight path, similar to how a spinning top maintains its balance. This gyroscopic effect reduces deviations caused by external forces.

While the spinning itself doesn't directly make the missile more agile, it contributes to a more stable and predictable flight path. This stability allows for more precise maneuvering when adjustments are needed, which can contribute to overall agility in targeting.

Remember RAM is effective in short range, the RIM-116 wouldn't be effective at longer range as flypath of threat larger.
That's why rim-116 doesn't have data link.
AFAIK Levent won't spin or will. No idea.


Even old Sidewinder is great. Taiwan Navy relies on SeaChapparel against huge enemy.
View attachment 69756
View attachment 69758

Bro, you will find that the only reason a RAM rotates around its axis is because, the two antennae in front of the seeker head gives a 2 dimensional view. By rotating the missile, the RF tracking system that uses a twin-antenna interferometer that can measure phase interference of the electromagnetic wave in one plane only, now can give measurements in both planes.
It has nothing to do with missile stabilisation. This is not a howitzer round that needs to be stabilised after having been shot out of a rifled barrel.

These missiles are produced in Germany. The system is manufactured in US.

RAM block 2 has increased range and packs in more energy with larger diameter. They are well proven very good midrange interceptor point defence missiles. A form of Close-In-Weapons-System. At 1 million dollar a missile they are not cheap. But neither are the ships they defend.

https://www.mbda-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/RAM-e-18.pdf

Levent missile developed from Sungur is our replacement version. But it does not roll around it’s axis like the RIM-116. It is supposed to have more range than the Sungur, (more than 11km). It is much longer and has twin fin system similar to the Israeli python missile

LEVENT Air Defence Missile to Answer Different Needs | TURDEF

ROKETSAN’s short-range air defence missile LEVENT will be developed in different configurations to respond to different needs.

turdef.com

Levent missile

RIM-116 missile

 

[Heartbang]

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers. Fighters are different though. The missile might need to do really sharp maneuvers against a fighter jet in some cases. This is why Bozdoğan is designed that way and this is why only a few countries can design A-A missiles similar to/on par with AIM-9X. And don't forget TVC only works while the engine is burning and the burn time of Bozdoğan is really short.

Our boys should program those missiles to aim for the pilot, if they can.
Lockmart programs their PAC missiles to do just that.

 

[UkroTurk]

Bro, you will find that the only reason a RAM rotates around its axis is because, the two antennae in front of the seeker head gives a 2 dimensional view. By rotating the missile, the RF tracking system that uses a twin-antenna interferometer that can measure phase interference of the electromagnetic wave in one plane only, now can give measurements in both planes.
It has nothing to do with missile stabilisation. This is not a howitzer round that needs to be stabilised after having been shot out of a rifled barrel.

These missiles are produced in Germany. The system is manufactured in US.

RAM block 2 has increased range and packs in more energy with larger diameter. They are well proven very good midrange interceptor point defence missiles. A form of Close-In-Weapons-System. At 1 million dollar a missile they are not cheap. But neither are the ships they defend.

https://www.mbda-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/RAM-e-18.pdf

Levent missile developed from Sungur is our replacement version. But it does not roll around it’s axis like the RIM-116. It is supposed to have more range than the Sungur, (more than 11km). It is much longer and has twin fin system similar to the Israeli python missile

LEVENT Air Defence Missile to Answer Different Needs | TURDEF

ROKETSAN’s short-range air defence missile LEVENT will be developed in different configurations to respond to different needs.

turdef.com

Levent missile
View attachment 69761

RIM-116 missile
View attachment 69760

Raytheon could have put 4 microwave seekers as we did in Levent but they put 2 MW seekers and they made the missile spinning. There must be a reason.

Anyway I wanted just try explaining Bozdoğan and AIM-9Xare not less agile than RIM-116.
I meant RIM-116 has just one structural advantage , it is spinning.

 

[Quasar]

-bozdoğan is a within visual range off boresight air to air missile, which provides wide angles from which the seeker enables a pilot to cue the missile to the target, since just cueing is not enough and the missile has to move in high angels, TVC is currical at this early stage where the missile pulls high G and it has to since this is the determining characteristics of a off boresight air to air missile, so short burn time of WVR missile is not a shortcoming but simply the nature of a WVR missile

-bozdoğan dh is one step ahead since it already exists but Levent is an earlier stage

-Logic dictates niether bozdoğan nor levent is the cure for all problems therefore I hope and I belive that both will find their places... it would be a mistake to give up on Levent