TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Anmdt]

Maybe the US uses AIM-9X and we don't know about it. They use Ram in demonstrations and exercises. And sells Ram to other countries.

RAM stems from AIM-9, and hugely benefits from advancements in AIM-9 as well.

 

[Sanchez]

No there is a reason why there is no naval AIM-9X. There were sea sparrow based short range naval air defense systems in the past but they were abandoned in favor of RAM and today there are no naval air defense systems based on the predecessor of sea sparrow.

If we try to intercept incoming missiles and UAVs with Bozdoğan we will likely lose that war fast after the first month.

RAM didn't replace RIM-7s, Sea Sparrow evolved into ESSM and is pretty much added to every single NATO and allied ship today. RIM-7 becoming ESSM is solely down to politics of the air force when they didn't want to further upgrade the Falcon and just went with AIM-120 and retired it, which then the maker argued to the navy for the ESSM upgrade, and rest is history as ESSM became one of the most potent and heavily used SAMs today.

 

[Anmdt]

RAM stems from AIM-9, and hugely benefits from advancements in AIM-9 as well.

For the ones who wonder about history of RAM development, an article by the laboratory who highly involved in the process;

https://secwww.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/Content/techdigest/pdf/V22-N04/22-04-Elko.pdf

 

[TheInsider]

Bozdoğan is not suitable for missile and UAV interception missions period. When you want your 140kg A-A missile to pull 30-40G maneuvers at mach 3 to 4 your tiny actuators need to produce enough torque to run a car. What we need is a smaller, lighter therefore inherently agile, relatively cheap and mass-produceable missile. Such a missile will be as good as Bozdoğan without its drawbacks.

 

[Afif]

Bozdogan has TVC. It should comfortably pull 50+G while accelerating at high speed.

Look at second, third and fourth interceptions. Outstanding sharp turns.
That is what I am talking about.

 

[TheInsider]

Bozdogan has TVC. It should comfortably pull 50+G while accelerating at high speed.

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers. Fighters are different though. The missile might need to do really sharp maneuvers against a fighter jet in some cases. This is why Bozdoğan is designed that way and this is why only a few countries can design A-A missiles similar to/on par with AIM-9X. And don't forget TVC only works while the engine is burning and the burn time of Bozdoğan is really short.

 

[Afif]

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers.

I am just saying for Bozdogan's actuators pulling high G technically is not an issue. Anyway, in my opinion best CIWS is something like Leonardo's STRALES. Leyered with Sea-RAM.

 

[TheInsider]

I am just saying for Bozdogan's actuators pulling high G technically is not an issue. Anyway, in my opinion best CIWS is something like Leonardo's STRALES. Leyered with Sea-RAM.

It is an issue even the ex-head of Tübitak SAGE Gürcan Okumuş talked about that issue in an interview.

BTW RAM is tested against GQM-163 Coyote test target missile.
Anyone who thinks RAM is worse than AIM-9X when it comes to missile interception should just check what GQM-163 Coyote is.

 

[uçuyorum]

WVR missile like bozdoğan especially has to be made much more maneuverable because the angular velocity of targets at close ranges is much higher. It is a natural fit.

 

[UkroTurk]

RIM-116 has just one advantage: it spins as it is rolling airframe missile .

Spinning helps stabilize the missile's flight path, similar to how a spinning top maintains its balance. This gyroscopic effect reduces deviations caused by external forces.

While the spinning itself doesn't directly make the missile more agile, it contributes to a more stable and predictable flight path. This stability allows for more precise maneuvering when adjustments are needed, which can contribute to overall agility in targeting.

Remember RAM is effective in short range, the RIM-116 wouldn't be effective at longer range as flypath of threat larger.
That's why rim-116 doesn't have data link.
AFAIK Levent won't spin or will. No idea.


Even old Sidewinder is great. Taiwan Navy relies on SeaChapparel against huge enemy.

Imagine as if there were NASAMS launcher loaded with AIM-9x and AESA radar. Which one would you prefer? RAM or this?

 

[Yasar_TR]

RIM-116 has just one advantage: it spins as it is rolling airframe missile .

Spinning helps stabilize the missile's flight path, similar to how a spinning top maintains its balance. This gyroscopic effect reduces deviations caused by external forces.

While the spinning itself doesn't directly make the missile more agile, it contributes to a more stable and predictable flight path. This stability allows for more precise maneuvering when adjustments are needed, which can contribute to overall agility in targeting.

Remember RAM is effective in short range, the RIM-116 wouldn't be effective at longer range as flypath of threat larger.
That's why rim-116 doesn't have data link.
AFAIK Levent won't spin or will. No idea.


Even old Sidewinder is great. Taiwan Navy relies on SeaChapparel against huge enemy.
View attachment 69756
View attachment 69758

Bro, you will find that the only reason a RAM rotates around its axis is because, the two antennae in front of the seeker head gives a 2 dimensional view. By rotating the missile, the RF tracking system that uses a twin-antenna interferometer that can measure phase interference of the electromagnetic wave in one plane only, now can give measurements in both planes.
It has nothing to do with missile stabilisation. This is not a howitzer round that needs to be stabilised after having been shot out of a rifled barrel.

These missiles are produced in Germany. The system is manufactured in US.

RAM block 2 has increased range and packs in more energy with larger diameter. They are well proven very good midrange interceptor point defence missiles. A form of Close-In-Weapons-System. At 1 million dollar a missile they are not cheap. But neither are the ships they defend.

https://www.mbda-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/RAM-e-18.pdf

Levent missile developed from Sungur is our replacement version. But it does not roll around it’s axis like the RIM-116. It is supposed to have more range than the Sungur, (more than 11km). It is much longer and has twin fin system similar to the Israeli python missile

LEVENT Air Defence Missile to Answer Different Needs | TURDEF

ROKETSAN’s short-range air defence missile LEVENT will be developed in different configurations to respond to different needs.

turdef.com

Levent missile

RIM-116 missile

 

[Heartbang]

Yes, but pulling 50G is not something you want as the missile will bleed a lot of energy. Even against supersonic missiles the missile is not supposed to be pulling 50Gs. It means your guidance is so bad at calculating Predicted Intercept Point(PIP) that the missile is compensating for that with insane maneuvers. Fighters are different though. The missile might need to do really sharp maneuvers against a fighter jet in some cases. This is why Bozdoğan is designed that way and this is why only a few countries can design A-A missiles similar to/on par with AIM-9X. And don't forget TVC only works while the engine is burning and the burn time of Bozdoğan is really short.

Our boys should program those missiles to aim for the pilot, if they can.
Lockmart programs their PAC missiles to do just that.

 

[UkroTurk]

Bro, you will find that the only reason a RAM rotates around its axis is because, the two antennae in front of the seeker head gives a 2 dimensional view. By rotating the missile, the RF tracking system that uses a twin-antenna interferometer that can measure phase interference of the electromagnetic wave in one plane only, now can give measurements in both planes.
It has nothing to do with missile stabilisation. This is not a howitzer round that needs to be stabilised after having been shot out of a rifled barrel.

These missiles are produced in Germany. The system is manufactured in US.

RAM block 2 has increased range and packs in more energy with larger diameter. They are well proven very good midrange interceptor point defence missiles. A form of Close-In-Weapons-System. At 1 million dollar a missile they are not cheap. But neither are the ships they defend.

https://www.mbda-deutschland.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/RAM-e-18.pdf

Levent missile developed from Sungur is our replacement version. But it does not roll around it’s axis like the RIM-116. It is supposed to have more range than the Sungur, (more than 11km). It is much longer and has twin fin system similar to the Israeli python missile

LEVENT Air Defence Missile to Answer Different Needs | TURDEF

ROKETSAN’s short-range air defence missile LEVENT will be developed in different configurations to respond to different needs.

turdef.com

Levent missile
View attachment 69761

RIM-116 missile
View attachment 69760

Raytheon could have put 4 microwave seekers as we did in Levent but they put 2 MW seekers and they made the missile spinning. There must be a reason.

Anyway I wanted just try explaining Bozdoğan and AIM-9Xare not less agile than RIM-116.
I meant RIM-116 has just one structural advantage , it is spinning.

 

[Quasar]

-bozdoğan is a within visual range off boresight air to air missile, which provides wide angles from which the seeker enables a pilot to cue the missile to the target, since just cueing is not enough and the missile has to move in high angels, TVC is currical at this early stage where the missile pulls high G and it has to since this is the determining characteristics of a off boresight air to air missile, so short burn time of WVR missile is not a shortcoming but simply the nature of a WVR missile

-bozdoğan dh is one step ahead since it already exists but Levent is an earlier stage

-Logic dictates niether bozdoğan nor levent is the cure for all problems therefore I hope and I belive that both will find their places... it would be a mistake to give up on Levent

 

[Quasar]

 

[UkroTurk]

Which ship is it?

So Exhaust and flame won't cause fire hazard if missiles launched close to hull.

 

[Sanchez]

Which ship is it?

So Exhaust and flame won't cause fire hazard if missiles launched close to hull.

It's one of the Mekos. It shows where the starboard quarter Sea Zenith would be. This is a CGI Levent model added on a real photo.

 

[UkroTurk]

It's one of the Mekos. It shows where the starboard quarter Sea Zenith would be. This is a CGI Levent model added on a real photo.

Waovv. finally they realized , instead of two sided autocannon, 2x air defense system will suit modernization.

 

[Sanchez]

Waovv. finally they realized , instead of two sided autocannon, 2x air defense system will suit modernization.

Oruçreis already have a Phalanx at the back, in total 2 autonomous CIWS with the Gökdeniz. Original plan was to have 2 Phalanxes.

 

[Khagan1923]

Waovv. finally they realized , instead of two sided autocannon, 2x air defense system will suit modernization.

It's a render/concept, Levent hasn't even started firing tests in no way will they install it on the Mekos undergoing MLU right now, it wouldn't even fit timeline wise.
Maybe Ada-Class MLU in a couple years.

Look at how long it took for Gökdeniz to be inducted into service in the Navy and that was a gun-based CIWS.