TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[uçuyorum]

UAV-230 has about the same specifications as TRG-230, but has more than twice the range, 150+ km to TRG's 70 km. I believe same thing happened when Roketsan tested UAV-122 as well. So, TRG-300 when launched from an F-16, which flies higher and faster than an Akıncı, it should easily surpass 200+ kms of range.

These artillery rocket turned missiles would naturally be more expensive than, for example, a MK83 + a guidance kit, but, in comparison to a cruise missile they would be far more economical. We already produce and use lots of MK series bombs with guidance kits and recently got Tolun. With these new ones, we'll be filling an empty position between guided bombs and cruise missiles, they have great range, supersonic and relatively cheap so they are a great option to have.

Plus hard to intercept than a cruise missile right?

 

[Saithan]

Well, I was also thinking that if we don't change the weight too much, but make it lighter with same warhead then it would be possible to launch these from Akinci, KE, Anka and such.

 

[boredaf]

Plus hard to intercept than a cruise missile right?

It is and it isn't, I imagine. Yes, it is far faster than a cruise missile like Çakır, which might make it harder to intercept for some systems, but it also cannot change its course or hide itself using the terrain or other advanced manoeuvres like that as far as I know. Just like any other system, it has its ups and down and its place in our inventory. Especially for UAVs like Akıncı, a missile with a range of 150+ km that an UAV can carry multiple of is a great option to have.

 

[boredaf]

Well, I was also thinking that if we don't change the weight too much, but make it lighter with same warhead then it would be possible to launch these from Akinci, KE, Anka and such.

UAV-122 and 230 have already been launched from Akıncı and made for drones, as the name is a dead give away. I'm not sure if they can carry TRG-300, its about 600 kg so I'm not sure if they can carry it under their wings but Akıncı can probably carry 1 under its fuselage. Air launched TRG-300 would be a better choice for F-16, imo, as it can carry multiple easily.

 

[Yasar_TR]

UAV-122 and 230 have already been launched from Akıncı and made for drones, as the name is a dead give away. I'm not sure if they can carry TRG-300, its about 600 kg so I'm not sure if they can carry it under their wings but Akıncı can probably carry 1 under its fuselage. Air launched TRG-300 would be a better choice for F-16, imo, as it can carry multiple easily.

Israeli Rampage is the same as a trg300 adapted to be carried and launched by F16s. It can be fired whilst f16 is at supersonic speeds, and 4 of them can be carried by an f16.
These missiles fly at 4.2 mach at mid course and are difficult to intecrept. Israelis give 250km range with impact velocity between 1.1-1.6 Mach. Non guided 300mm rocket artillery are cheap. But when guided, they can be above 25K dollars a piece. American ones are 45K a piece. Nevertheless , they are much more economical and comparatively expendable in quantity than cruise missiles.
But due to their ballistic trajectories they can be tracked from a long distance. A subsonic cruise missile like SOM, can fly close to surface and may only be picked by radars when it is ~30 km from its target. As it has stealth construction and can navigate the terrain, it may be too late to intercept. But it costs over a million dollars.

 

[boredaf]

But when guided, they can be above 25K dollars a piece. American ones are 45K a piece.

Damn, that is dirt cheap in comparison to even smaller missiles, even Hellfires are around 100k as far as I know. Now I really hope Roketsan is working on an air launched version. They would be an especially great option in a saturation attack along with cruise missiles and long range kamikaze drones, for example.

 

[Afif]

But when guided, they can be above 25K dollars a piece. American ones are 45K a piece.

Any source?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Any source?

It was an educated guess on the basis of below sources. But you can find some of these freely with a google search.

Artillery Rockets

SS60 and SS80 artillery rockets produced by Brazil have costs similar to the ones I have given.

Today it is a sellers’ market. US has doubled the price of their MLRS and Atacms missiles after their success in Ukraine.
Chinese are asking near 100K for their 300mm guided rockets, after it hit a moving sea target.

We know that it first cost us around 25K, to produce the HGK & KGK guided bombs, to make a couple of thousand dollar dumb bomb, smart. That is when US were selling them to us for 95K when it was costing them only 21K. Now our costs must have come down too.

A 300mm artillery rocket is a ballistic dumb bomb, that is thrown in the air like a fireworks rocket that has guidance as it starts it’s free fall. How much you spend and add to it in terms of guidance decides the cost price. NOT the sale price.

Bangladesh, according to unverified sources, bought 18+ TRG300 missile systems for 60 million dollars. Each truck loaded with 4 rockets. Those specialised trucks with electronics are over 1.5 million dollars each. How many spare rockets they bought is another mystery. You do the math.

M270 MLRS missiles were 14000 dollars a piece in 1983 when Hellfire missiles were 45000 dollars. Before the Ukraine war , between 2010 and 2020, Hellfire was 70K and M270 missiles were 45K. Then it went up to 85K. Now doubled to 165K. Hellfire now is in excess of 150K. “Supply and Demand” rules the price.

The 300mm artillery rockets are easily expendable missiles. That is the whole idea of artillery rockets. To replace artillery rounds whilst giving more range and area coverage.
Israelis, before anything else, are good businessmen. They would not have these expendable rockets on their planes, if they were too expensive.

The trick here is to produce these yourself. Not to buy them. Or you get a bill for 23 billion dollars!!

US missile system unit costs, 1983

From AvWeek 14 March 1983 we can break-out the unit costs from the FY1984 requests. This excludes spares and RDT&E which were submitted as separate line items. Actual variants were not listed in the requests, just program names. Also requested as procurement, but not stated in unit terms...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

CAT-UXO - 300mm ss 80 astros rocket

Information about 300mm ss 80 astros rocket

cat-uxo.com

 

[Anmdt]

Then it's party time
I have an another crazy idea. We also have at hand MKE 20mm 6 barrel Gatling gun as well as Burç CIWS 3 barrel 20mm Gatling gun.
What if the Gatling gun fired 20mm cal ammunition with proximity fuse? Absolutely there won't be any gap however you would have to sacrifice kinetic energy because of HE ammunition.

EDIT:

Proximity fuzes on fighter aircraft cannons?

Were proximity fuzes ever used in the 20mm cannons mounted n fighter aircraft, and if they were, how effective were they? If not, would they have been as effective as they were when used for artillery or antiaircraft guns?

ww2aircraft.net

Very precious information about AA ammunition's proximity fuses



Some important details from this website

* The Pre-Fragmented HE round (PFHE) had a proximity fuze with an effective range of 6.5 metres against aircraft and the improved Mk2 could effectively double this figure

*So, because of that clever design every round that is on target explodes at the ideal distance +/- maybe 50 cm or 18 inches.The ideal distance for frag damage was about 70 ft or 21 metres (compared to 6 metres for shock wave damage).

Bofors SAK 40/L70 Mk.3 Mk.4 AA naval gun BAE Systems

bofors 40/l70 sak aa naval gun mk.3 mk.4 navy ship bae systems

www.seaforces.org

Why noone said it ? :

The introduction of a 40mm proximity fuzed round in the early 1970s was another improvement.

View attachment 72198
Has Turkish Navy acquired such PFHE ammunitions yet?

So Tuzla Class ships have already had capable CIWS! Twin Dardo 40 L70 appear to have used proximity fused ammunition for ages!
@Anmdt

Not sure if we have purchased the proximity fuse installed 40 mm rounds for the twin forty but even the Coast Guard's twin forty on SGAK Corvette project ships is capable of engaging aerial threats (with Aselsan's TAKS). So YTKB should be capable of that by default.

 

[Trakya_forever]

As far as I know Bangladesh bought 400 Rockets and yep the cost was 60 million USD.

 

[Afif]

As far as I know Bangladesh bought 400 Rockets and yep the cost was 60 million USD.

700 Rockets. 500 TRG-230 and 200 TRG-300. Former 60k each, later 100k each.

 

[what]

Food for thought, UKs upcoming / ongoing projects:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1860072834976088507

 

[Afif]

Food for thought, UKs upcoming / ongoing projects:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1860072834976088507

I just think systems like Alpagut loitering ammunitions are already a better alternative to these concepts in general. Offers more flexibility and cost effectiveness.

However, I can see how one could find its usefulness in rapidly engaging time critical moving targets at operational ranges. Something that can be done with TRGL-230.

 

[Kartal1]

I just think systems like Alpagut loitering ammunitions are already a better alternative to these concepts in general. Offers more flexibility and cost effectiveness.

However, I can see how one could find its usefulness in rapidly engaging time critical moving targets at operational ranges. Something that can be done with TRGL-230.

I remember two of these scenarios just prior to operation Olive Branch in Syria.

First a moving convoy of Hezbollah was hit and after that very big 30-40 convoy of the YPG carrying ammunition to Afrin was hit on the move. If I remember correctly the second strike was where we used one of these guided rockets (TRG/TRLG), but was it the 122mm or the 230mm one I am also not sure. It was a very good show at the time.

 

[Yasar_TR]

TRG300s are only 585 kg with the warhead of 105 kg. I guess Roketsan will produce a new rocket with a bigger diameter and weight. F16s can carry 2 * 1000 kg rockets. In that way we can easily exceed 500 km for ALBM class.

If it is the weight of explosives that needs to be increased, Roketsan has a version of TRG300 that is 660kg in weight with 180kg warhead that has a range of 90 km.

Roketsan - TRG-300 Guided Missile

www.roketsan.com.tr

Making even a bigger rocket, and a new one at that, will cost more and will take time. We need to take a page from Israel’s book and learn to have a killer supersonic ALBM at an economical cost with missiles already in hand that can be produced in bulk quickly and cheaply.

These rockets can be intercepted. If you fire 1 of the two expensive and larger 1000 kg missiles, there is more chances of it being intercepted. Yet if you can fire all 4 cheaper trg300, then you will have more chance of getting through with a smaller but just as effective missile.
Main use of these will be for:

• Artillery and Air Defence Systems Radar Sites
• Radar Sites
• Assembly Areas
• Logistic Facilities
• C3 Facilities (command, control, communication)

So a trg300 is fully capable to perform these duties. No need for a larger more expensive version.


EDIT

British contemplating using these in place of their over 2 million pound storm shadows is good enough reason to think for us too.

Any missile that can hit its target at supersonic velocity, twice the speed of a subsonic cruise missile doesn’t really need to carry a lot of explosive either. Half a ton hitting at that speed will carry a lot of kinetic energy.

 

[boredaf]

British contemplating using these in place of their over 2 million pound storm shadows is good enough reason to think for us too.

I think one of the lessons they learned (well, along with everyone else) that while expensive and complicated systems most certainly has a place in the battlefield, you need cheaper and reliable systems to compliment them. Even Russia took this lesson to heart and started using FAB extensively on the frontlines instead of more expensive systems.

 

[Dmr]

Food for thought, UKs upcoming / ongoing projects:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1860072834976088507

If I remember correctly,TUBITAK and Excalibur were working on a mobile land platform launcher for Kuzgun missiles,which seemed similar to this UK project.Any info what happened to that?

TÜBİTAK SAGE ve Excalibur Army'den KUZGUN ailesi için işbirliği!

TÜBİTAK SAGE ve Excalibur Army, KUZGUN mühimmat ailesi üzerinden ateş destek platformlarının geliştirilmesi üzerine niyet beyanı imzaladı.

www.defenceturk.net

 

[Heartbang]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1860728464514375959

 

[Strong AI]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1860728464514375959

I really hope this is not its official name, because there is already "Air LORA". Please not again the same issue like "Steel Dome".

 

[BaburKhan]

ALBM's were successfully used in the israeli Attacks on Iran. They are more cheap than Cruise Missiles and they are faster. TurAF need them to strike important strategic Targets and Variants which can engage moving Ships like LHD or Aircraft Carrier.