TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,503
Solutions
2
Reactions
118 24,896
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
It wasn't obvious to me and for a lot of people. There were only guesses and suspicions regarding the ramjet studies at Roketsan and none of them include engine design most of the studies were revolving around aerodynamic body and engine inlet designs. Roketsan having a separate ramjet engine project is news.
Roketsan's ramjet studies known to start from 2015,
@Bogeyman has posted several things about Roketsan's ramjet and detonating engine studies, since gürcan okumuş has verified liquid ramjet studies it became too obvious it is Roketsan who works on solid ramjet.
So, all in all, no need to tell" i have got an info" it was obvious for several months nearing 6 months.
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
4,066
Solutions
1
Reactions
34 14,482
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
As I said neither of those studies involved a solid fuel ramjet engine design. Detonation engines have nothing to do with ramjets. Roketsan's studies revolved around aerodynamic body design, engine inlet design, and new-generation solid fuel research. There was no concrete info other than suspicions regarding an actual ramjet engine.

Oh BTW Roketsan ramjet studies go back to 2011, not 2015 let's correct that.
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,950
Reactions
5 4,146
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
It wasn't obvious to me and for a lot of people. There were only guesses and suspicions regarding the ramjet studies at Roketsan and none of them include engine design most of the studies were revolving around aerodynamic body and engine inlet designs. Roketsan having a separate ramjet engine project is news.

According to a source, Tubitak ramjet involves something revolutionary in ramjet systems. It is "characteristically different" in a way from the currently available ramjet systems.

It is rumored that it can hold speeds around Mach 4, it has the ability to throttle up and down.

Contrary to what some people think we won't wait a lot to see Gökhan in action(I don't think test footage will be revealed though). The project is moving to ballistic flight tests. The first ballistic flight test is planned for 2022 a very ambitious date. After ballistic flight tests, the project is expected to advance smoothly as it shares many subsystems with Gökdoğan.
The missile is ready!
 

Huelague

Experienced member
Messages
3,950
Reactions
5 4,146
Nation of residence
Germany
Nation of origin
Turkey
Roketsan's ramjet studies known to start from 2015,
@Bogeyman has posted several things about Roketsan's ramjet and detonating engine studies, since gürcan okumuş has verified liquid ramjet studies it became too obvious it is Roketsan who works on solid ramjet.
So, all in all, no need to tell" i have got an info" it was obvious for several months nearing 6 months.

Bro, you can only talk for yourself. You can’t say (we) don’t need this information. It was obvious for some or many, but not all of the members here. Don’t forget we are an open forum with new members.
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,251
Reactions
142 16,310
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
It wasn't obvious to me and for a lot of people. There were only guesses and suspicions regarding the ramjet studies at Roketsan and none of them include engine design most of the studies were revolving around aerodynamic body and engine inlet designs. Roketsan having a separate ramjet engine project is news.

According to a source, Tubitak ramjet involves something revolutionary in ramjet systems. It is "characteristically different" in a way from the currently available ramjet systems.

It is rumored that it can hold speeds around Mach 4, it has the ability to throttle up and down.

Contrary to what some people think we won't wait a lot to see Gökhan in action(I don't think test footage will be revealed though). The project is moving to ballistic flight tests. The first ballistic flight test is planned for 2022 a very ambitious date. After ballistic flight tests, the project is expected to advance smoothly as it shares many subsystems with Gökdoğan.
There are some discrepancies in this write up.
We know and it is a fact that a Ramjet engine is most efficient at speeds around 3 Mach. So it has to cruise at that speed. As it approaches 6 Mach it starts developing shock waves inside the compression chamber, decreasing thrust and increasing fuel usage.
If we look at Meteor, it approaches it’s target at 3 Mach. Then at terminal stage increases it’s speed to 4+ Mach.
The very special nature of the Meteor Ramjet is that it can be made so that it can be throttled up and down. This is achieved by a variable flow duct mechanism. To sustain constant speeds of 4 mach is not fuel efficient. But if the design is not throttle-able then it has to be the case, if it is to have a 4 Mach high constant speed. But as it is throttle-able, it does not make sense!
These are variable flow ducted Ramjet missiles. They have thrust all the time the missile is flying. So why “ballistic” tests?
Dictionary states that ballistic means : “moving under the force of gravity only.”
Ballistic test conflicts with the nature of a throttle-able ramjet missile’s motion.
 

Philips

Well-known member
Messages
359
Reactions
991
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Netherlands
So why “ballistic” tests?
I think it is meant like this:
3114406.jpg
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
4,066
Solutions
1
Reactions
34 14,482
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Yes, I know that nearly all of the ramjet missiles(A-A, A-G, and G-G) fly around Mach 2.5-3 as it is the sweet spot but this is what my source said to me. Maybe it is similar to Meteors use case and Mach 4 is for the terminal approach or we are using some new fuel or our ramjet design differs from other ramjet designs. Time will tell.

The ballistic test is a kind of test done only with a propulsion system and telemetry. It won't have a warhead, seeker, etc. That is why it is called the ballistic test. The missile doesn't follow a ballistic trajectory.
 

TheInsider

Experienced member
Professional
Messages
4,066
Solutions
1
Reactions
34 14,482
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
I think it is meant like this:
3114406.jpg
Yes exactly.


Missile Mach 3= 3675km/h lets round it down to 3600
Target Mach 2=2450km/h lets round it down to 2400

Let's say a Turkish F-16 detects an enemy fighter 100km away and fires a Gokhan missile while both targets fly at Mach 0,9. Let's assume for simplicity both the missile and target instantly reach Mach 2 and Mach 3 and both the missile and the target follow a linear path.

The missile will travel 1 km per second.
The fighter travels 0,6666667km per second.

The missile closes the distance by 0,3333333km per second.

The missile will catch the target after ~300 seconds.
The missile will travel 300km in 300 seconds. If your missile has a range lower than 300km it will miss its target.

And now let's assume that our missile flies at Mach 4 (4900km/h lets round down it to 4800 for the sake of simplicity)
Our missile travel 1,3333km per second
The fighter is the same
The missile closes the distance by 0,666666663km per second
The missile will catch the target after ~150 seconds
The missile will travel ~200km in ~150 seconds. If our missile has a range greater than 200km it will hit its target.


So you can shave off 100km or 1/3 range when you go from Mach 3 to Mach 4. So let's assume fuel consumption is increased by %33 for the second missile. In this case, both of the missiles will carry a similar amount of fuel. At any ratio of more than %33, the second missile has to carry more fuel compared to the first one if the fuel composition is the same. The second missile has the advantage of shorter flight time which is also important. If somehow you made a breakthrough that enables a more efficient fuel burn(lower than %33 increase at Mach 4) with the same fuel or formulated a better fuel. You can design a more compact missile.

There are trade-offs. It is not a simple linear comparison you burn more fuel at Mach 4 less at Mach 3.
 
Last edited:

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,251
Reactions
142 16,310
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
I think it is meant like this:
3114406.jpg
This is, if I am not mistaken, Bozdogan missile. Both Bozdogan and Gokdogan have solid fuel rocket engines. They burn all the fuel they have to bring the missiles to their 4 Mach top speed. Then at terminal stage they have no new thrust. Each time they have to make a sharp course correction, they lose some of their speed. They are actually travelling on the initial speed they have been given. So they may be sort of accepted as ”ballistic” even though they are not really moving under the effect of gravity. (We do call a revolver-bullet’s motion as ballistic as gravity plays a big part in it’s trajectory. In this case Bozdogan’s motion can be deemed ballistic)
But a throttle-able ramjet engine has thrust until it hits it’s target. So it can not be deemed to have a ballistic motion.
 
Last edited:

Spook

Contributor
Messages
607
Reactions
2,106
Nation of residence
Albania
Nation of origin
Turkey
This is, if I am not mistaken, Bozdogan missile. Both Bozdogan and Gokdogan have solid fuel rocket engines. They burn all the fuel they have to bring the missiles to their 4 Mach top speed. Then at terminal stage they have no new thrust. Each time they have to make a sharp course correction, they lose some of their speed. They are actually travelling on the initial speed they have been given. So they are ”ballistic” .
But a throttle-able ramjet engine has thrust until it hits it’s target. So it can not be deemed to be ballistic.


Explanation about engine burn time and kinetic energy (Timestamped)
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
3,251
Reactions
142 16,310
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey

Explanation about engine burn time and kinetic energy (Timestamped)
Exactly! The rocket engines of these missiles only work for few seconds to bring them to their top speeds. Then they travel with their kinetic energy. As they are moving without thrust they are being effected by gravity. So can be deemed to have a “ballistic” trajectory.
But a throttle controlled Ramjet, has thrust till the last second.
 

Philips

Well-known member
Messages
359
Reactions
991
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Netherlands
This is, if I am not mistaken, Bozdogan missile. Both Bozdogan and Gokdogan have solid fuel rocket engines. They burn all the fuel they have to bring the missiles to their 4 Mach top speed. Then at terminal stage they have no new thrust. Each time they have to make a sharp course correction, they lose some of their speed. They are actually travelling on the initial speed they have been given. So they may be sort of accepted as ”ballistic” even though they are not really moving under the effect of gravity. (We do call a revolver-bullet’s motion as ballistic as gravity plays a big part in it’s trajectory. In this case Bozdogan’s motion can be deemed ballistic)
But a throttle-able ramjet engine has thrust until it hits it’s target. So it can not be deemed to have a ballistic motion.
How could I've forgotten! A ramjet engine traveling a multiple times the speed of sound won't have any kinetic energy anymore when the fuel is depleted of course! It will decelerate from mach 3+ to 0 speed in less than a Planck length and Planck time and will drop to earth like a brick.
 
E

Era_shield

Guest
This is, if I am not mistaken, Bozdogan missile. Both Bozdogan and Gokdogan have solid fuel rocket engines. They burn all the fuel they have to bring the missiles to their 4 Mach top speed. Then at terminal stage they have no new thrust. Each time they have to make a sharp course correction, they lose some of their speed. They are actually travelling on the initial speed they have been given. So they may be sort of accepted as ”ballistic” even though they are not really moving under the effect of gravity. (We do call a revolver-bullet’s motion as ballistic as gravity plays a big part in it’s trajectory. In this case Bozdogan’s motion can be deemed ballistic)
But a throttle-able ramjet engine has thrust until it hits it’s target. So it can not be deemed to have a ballistic motion.
In the context of weapons tests, "ballistic" just means the munition is tested without guidance.
 

Foulgrim

Well-known member
Moderator
Greece Moderator
Messages
365
Reactions
1 628
Nation of residence
Greece
Nation of origin
Greece
This site(pentapostagma)writes all lies so do not take it seriously. All other Greek media report that the Atmaca missile exists while Greek journalists inform their readers about its development phases all these years. Especially in the Greek defense press, the news is quite balanced and realistic by notable journalists.
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,785
Reactions
19 19,937
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
This site(pentapostagma)writes all lies so do not take it seriously. All other Greek media report that the Atmaca missile exists while Greek journalists inform their readers about its development phases all these years. Especially in the Greek defense press, the news is quite balanced and realistic by notable journalists.

Such sites are available in almost every country..
 

Follow us on social media

Latest posts

Top Bottom