Radonsider
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iirc Cenk-S is multifunctional
Atak 2 naval was said in a programme, someone can probably find it
Atak 2 naval was said in a programme, someone can probably find it
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There's confusion about Turkey's defense budget. I'm gonna share a post that explains the structure of the Turkey's spending and how it exactly covers all the projects' costs.
The post is from Quora. The question is;
The answer;
-----
I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes.
One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizations, institutions who write about defense:
This brings us automatically to wrong conclusions, because it's like many other economic statistics out there following western centric views and missing many things about other countries, that does not run with the same principles.
The second reason is the mistake of calculating foreign defense expenditures, importing weapon systems, as the sole interpretation of the defense purchases of a country, while neglecting totally that some of these countries are also developers and producers by themselves.
Now when we talk about Turkey, the problem and root is the same. Turkey, unlike many western countries or other counterparts in the lists, has a “decentralised" defense spending and is on the top also a major producer and exporter of these arms.
What does this mean I will elaborate a bit here:
The defense budget of Turkey was voted in December of 2020 as around 138 billion liras, 18 billion dollars to that time of currency exchange, 15 billion dollars now after the fluctuation of lira.
According to the budget orientation in Turkey, the loss of 3 billion through exchange fluctuation need to be covered from the state at the end of year.
What is the defence budget in Turkey and the misunderstanding which these statistics referring to?
It's generally called “Savunma bütçesi" and is a collection of departments: defense ministry, gendarmerie, coastal guard, etc.
This money is not there to buy new stuff or develop new projects, where this never ending questions here comes about “how Turkey will afford this or that weapon, if budget is X?”
The budget here goes for: salaries, replacement of small ammunition, repair and maintenance, restructure of buildings, organizational spendings, fuel and civilian spendings.
Then where does the money comes for new procurements?
This here is the Defense Secretariat of Turkey
They are tasked with the tenders and organizational supervision over new projects or procurements if the Turkish army asks for any need.
But, do they have any budget? Except a small amount for their organizational structure and salaries, NO.
Why? There is a trick behind.
Because Turkey has faced for 60 years openly or hiddenly many sanctions or restrictions from other countries, this institution is actually the superior department, but the final decision for procurement and payment is not done from them, but the Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı (Treasury and Finance Ministry).
Budget: 70 billion dollars for 2021
That means, when for example an S-400 system is bought, the tender, decision is made from SSB, the contract is signed by the guys above and the money goes out of their coffer.
So what is the trick here?
The US has sanctioned the SSB with CAATSA for S-400 and took two executives of them into the travel ban list, which technically and theoretically is right in first sight, but that does not affect anything, because Turkey proceeds actually to get stuff everywhere including the USA via the end contractor, which is the Turkish treasury.
For stopping this, they have to sanction the State, the Republic of Turkey, which is almost impossible and really odd, except when they are at a direct war. Both sides know that, but they like that idea and save their face and day.
On one hand, the US took out Turkey from the F-35 project and sanctioned, but at the same time delivered recently the F-110 jet fighter engines for the Turkish fighter jet project MMU. How this is happening? Well, exactly as I have explained above.
Now, cool and fine, but what about the numerous Turkish indigenous projects which are developed and produced en masses in Turkey, how they are financed?
Here comes this institute…
A semi-state institute
Why semi? Again past bad experience. İt's a some kind NGO with their own private Fund. Called as Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri Güçlendirme Vakfı (Simple translated: Foundation for the strengthening of the Turkish Armed Forces)
İt's a foundation build for the Turkish Army as an NGO, where the Turkish Army and the Turkish citizens own a fund, where the largest Turkish defense companies are inside.
Who are these defense companies?
Aselsan (48. largest in the world)
TAI (53. largest in the world)
Roketsan (89. largest in the world)
Havelsan (99. largest in the world)
Aspilsan
İsbir
They combined earn a whopping amount of yearly 10 billion dollars on revenue with appr. 3–4 billions of profit.
And the state does not spend a single penny for new indigenous projects directly, but rather it's done with the profit of these companies again by these companies themselves with the superstition and permission of TGSKV. Last year they have spend even during pandemic an amount of 1,8 billion dollar into R&D.
Only when it's about a giant project such as the MMU, then the treasury steps in and funds the R&D and the TAI builds the infrastructure and organization on its own. It's a kind of sharing risks.
But TGSKV does not end here. I told above that Turkish citizens also own this foundation right? How? Well, there are numerous taxes in Turkey, starting from lottery to aid donations, where a part goes directly into the treasure of this foundation and they spend it back equally to these companies for whatever they want to build again. Yearly taxes reach 4–5 billion dollars.
I continue.
Turkish Presidential Department
As the name suggests, this is a secret fund, where nobody, except the national security council know how much money is inside. In past, this was given into the hand of the PM of Turkey for top secret operations for the security of the nation, but after the change into a Presidential system, it's now in the budget of the Presidential house. This fund pays special operations, including the procurement of special equipment for these operations of the army. The national security agency was also funded in past for operations via this fund, but now they are separated from this and have their own increased annual budget.
And lastly…
Oyak
This is a fund which is owned directly from the Turkish Armed Forces.
It's the second largest fund of Turkey, with a yearly turn of 20 billion dollars and assets worth 100 billion dollars…
It's active in 8 different strategic sectors, ranging from automobile to metallurgy, resource extracting to refining, key technologies etc.
The reason for the existence of this giant is again past bad experiences of Turkey and that they see their security way more important than anything else. It was emphasized, that the Turkish Army, if the time comes where the state is under full attack or sanction, to use its own assets to finance himself, own the key industries to get the resources and needed materials on time and indigenously or through their foreign partners to overcome any difficulty.
It owns many stock market listed key companies and every officer inside of the army pays monthly from their salaries a certain amount of percentage to help this fund grow and become some return when they retire. That's why the officers of the Turkish army become in general the highest amount of retirement packages, more than any other sector position.
Now, does the defense figures on statistics list of SIPRI and others seem anywhere close?
Therefore, do not give any importance about these numbers and always take it a bit with salt and pepper.
Conclusion:
It's safe to assume, that the Turkish spending on defense annually amounts more than 30 billion dollars a year easily and if we take also into account that 75 % of these spendings go for indigenous Turkish products rather than to foreign countries and the cost effect ratio is at least 1/5 to any western country, the worth of the Turkish defense spendings a year reach the TOP 5 or 6 in the world.
Even when everything would go bankrupt in Turkey, the army is never out of money or resources.
Thanks.
----
I hope this will clear some confusion and help us understand more about the relationships between various state institutions.
www.quora.com
The post is from Quora. The question is;
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones, what is the reason behind?
The answer;
-----
I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes.
One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizations, institutions who write about defense:
- Global fire power (funded BS page, who claims to report only about quantity, but even gets this wrong by a huge margin)
- SIPRI (who collects mostly the informations from news coverage and that most of the time in English)
- Finally, some newspaper articles, again in English from established media's.
This brings us automatically to wrong conclusions, because it's like many other economic statistics out there following western centric views and missing many things about other countries, that does not run with the same principles.
The second reason is the mistake of calculating foreign defense expenditures, importing weapon systems, as the sole interpretation of the defense purchases of a country, while neglecting totally that some of these countries are also developers and producers by themselves.
Now when we talk about Turkey, the problem and root is the same. Turkey, unlike many western countries or other counterparts in the lists, has a “decentralised" defense spending and is on the top also a major producer and exporter of these arms.
What does this mean I will elaborate a bit here:
The defense budget of Turkey was voted in December of 2020 as around 138 billion liras, 18 billion dollars to that time of currency exchange, 15 billion dollars now after the fluctuation of lira.
According to the budget orientation in Turkey, the loss of 3 billion through exchange fluctuation need to be covered from the state at the end of year.
What is the defence budget in Turkey and the misunderstanding which these statistics referring to?
It's generally called “Savunma bütçesi" and is a collection of departments: defense ministry, gendarmerie, coastal guard, etc.
This money is not there to buy new stuff or develop new projects, where this never ending questions here comes about “how Turkey will afford this or that weapon, if budget is X?”
The budget here goes for: salaries, replacement of small ammunition, repair and maintenance, restructure of buildings, organizational spendings, fuel and civilian spendings.
Then where does the money comes for new procurements?
This here is the Defense Secretariat of Turkey
They are tasked with the tenders and organizational supervision over new projects or procurements if the Turkish army asks for any need.
But, do they have any budget? Except a small amount for their organizational structure and salaries, NO.
Why? There is a trick behind.
Because Turkey has faced for 60 years openly or hiddenly many sanctions or restrictions from other countries, this institution is actually the superior department, but the final decision for procurement and payment is not done from them, but the Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı (Treasury and Finance Ministry).
Budget: 70 billion dollars for 2021
That means, when for example an S-400 system is bought, the tender, decision is made from SSB, the contract is signed by the guys above and the money goes out of their coffer.
So what is the trick here?
The US has sanctioned the SSB with CAATSA for S-400 and took two executives of them into the travel ban list, which technically and theoretically is right in first sight, but that does not affect anything, because Turkey proceeds actually to get stuff everywhere including the USA via the end contractor, which is the Turkish treasury.
For stopping this, they have to sanction the State, the Republic of Turkey, which is almost impossible and really odd, except when they are at a direct war. Both sides know that, but they like that idea and save their face and day.
On one hand, the US took out Turkey from the F-35 project and sanctioned, but at the same time delivered recently the F-110 jet fighter engines for the Turkish fighter jet project MMU. How this is happening? Well, exactly as I have explained above.
Now, cool and fine, but what about the numerous Turkish indigenous projects which are developed and produced en masses in Turkey, how they are financed?
Here comes this institute…
A semi-state institute
Why semi? Again past bad experience. İt's a some kind NGO with their own private Fund. Called as Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri Güçlendirme Vakfı (Simple translated: Foundation for the strengthening of the Turkish Armed Forces)
İt's a foundation build for the Turkish Army as an NGO, where the Turkish Army and the Turkish citizens own a fund, where the largest Turkish defense companies are inside.
Who are these defense companies?
Aselsan (48. largest in the world)
TAI (53. largest in the world)
Roketsan (89. largest in the world)
Havelsan (99. largest in the world)
Aspilsan
İsbir
They combined earn a whopping amount of yearly 10 billion dollars on revenue with appr. 3–4 billions of profit.
And the state does not spend a single penny for new indigenous projects directly, but rather it's done with the profit of these companies again by these companies themselves with the superstition and permission of TGSKV. Last year they have spend even during pandemic an amount of 1,8 billion dollar into R&D.
Only when it's about a giant project such as the MMU, then the treasury steps in and funds the R&D and the TAI builds the infrastructure and organization on its own. It's a kind of sharing risks.
But TGSKV does not end here. I told above that Turkish citizens also own this foundation right? How? Well, there are numerous taxes in Turkey, starting from lottery to aid donations, where a part goes directly into the treasure of this foundation and they spend it back equally to these companies for whatever they want to build again. Yearly taxes reach 4–5 billion dollars.
I continue.
Turkish Presidential Department
As the name suggests, this is a secret fund, where nobody, except the national security council know how much money is inside. In past, this was given into the hand of the PM of Turkey for top secret operations for the security of the nation, but after the change into a Presidential system, it's now in the budget of the Presidential house. This fund pays special operations, including the procurement of special equipment for these operations of the army. The national security agency was also funded in past for operations via this fund, but now they are separated from this and have their own increased annual budget.
And lastly…
Oyak
This is a fund which is owned directly from the Turkish Armed Forces.
It's the second largest fund of Turkey, with a yearly turn of 20 billion dollars and assets worth 100 billion dollars…
It's active in 8 different strategic sectors, ranging from automobile to metallurgy, resource extracting to refining, key technologies etc.
The reason for the existence of this giant is again past bad experiences of Turkey and that they see their security way more important than anything else. It was emphasized, that the Turkish Army, if the time comes where the state is under full attack or sanction, to use its own assets to finance himself, own the key industries to get the resources and needed materials on time and indigenously or through their foreign partners to overcome any difficulty.
It owns many stock market listed key companies and every officer inside of the army pays monthly from their salaries a certain amount of percentage to help this fund grow and become some return when they retire. That's why the officers of the Turkish army become in general the highest amount of retirement packages, more than any other sector position.
Now, does the defense figures on statistics list of SIPRI and others seem anywhere close?
Therefore, do not give any importance about these numbers and always take it a bit with salt and pepper.
Conclusion:
It's safe to assume, that the Turkish spending on defense annually amounts more than 30 billion dollars a year easily and if we take also into account that 75 % of these spendings go for indigenous Turkish products rather than to foreign countries and the cost effect ratio is at least 1/5 to any western country, the worth of the Turkish defense spendings a year reach the TOP 5 or 6 in the world.
Even when everything would go bankrupt in Turkey, the army is never out of money or resources.
Thanks.
----
I hope this will clear some confusion and help us understand more about the relationships between various state institutions.
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones,...
Answer: I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes. One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizatio...
Radonsider
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Wholly, wasn't expecting this muchThere's confusion about Turkey's defense budget. I'm gonna share a post that explains the structure of the Turkey's spending and how it exactly covers all the projects' costs.
The post is from Quora. The question is;
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones, what is the reason behind?
The answer;
-----
I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes.
One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizations, institutions who write about defense:
- Global fire power (funded BS page, who claims to report only about quantity, but even gets this wrong by a huge margin)
- SIPRI (who collects mostly the informations from news coverage and that most of the time in English)
- Finally, some newspaper articles, again in English from established media's.
This brings us automatically to wrong conclusions, because it's like many other economic statistics out there following western centric views and missing many things about other countries, that does not run with the same principles.
The second reason is the mistake of calculating foreign defense expenditures, importing weapon systems, as the sole interpretation of the defense purchases of a country, while neglecting totally that some of these countries are also developers and producers by themselves.
Now when we talk about Turkey, the problem and root is the same. Turkey, unlike many western countries or other counterparts in the lists, has a “decentralised" defense spending and is on the top also a major producer and exporter of these arms.
What does this mean I will elaborate a bit here:
The defense budget of Turkey was voted in December of 2020 as around 138 billion liras, 18 billion dollars to that time of currency exchange, 15 billion dollars now after the fluctuation of lira.
According to the budget orientation in Turkey, the loss of 3 billion through exchange fluctuation need to be covered from the state at the end of year.
What is the defence budget in Turkey and the misunderstanding which these statistics referring to?
It's generally called “Savunma bütçesi" and is a collection of departments: defense ministry, gendarmerie, coastal guard, etc.
This money is not there to buy new stuff or develop new projects, where this never ending questions here comes about “how Turkey will afford this or that weapon, if budget is X?”
The budget here goes for: salaries, replacement of small ammunition, repair and maintenance, restructure of buildings, organizational spendings, fuel and civilian spendings.
Then where does the money comes for new procurements?
This here is the Defense Secretariat of Turkey
They are tasked with the tenders and organizational supervision over new projects or procurements if the Turkish army asks for any need.
But, do they have any budget? Except a small amount for their organizational structure and salaries, NO.
Why? There is a trick behind.
Because Turkey has faced for 60 years openly or hiddenly many sanctions or restrictions from other countries, this institution is actually the superior department, but the final decision for procurement and payment is not done from them, but the Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı (Treasury and Finance Ministry).
Budget: 70 billion dollars for 2021
That means, when for example an S-400 system is bought, the tender, decision is made from SSB, the contract is signed by the guys above and the money goes out of their coffer.
So what is the trick here?
The US has sanctioned the SSB with CAATSA for S-400 and took two executives of them into the travel ban list, which technically and theoretically is right in first sight, but that does not affect anything, because Turkey proceeds actually to get stuff everywhere including the USA via the end contractor, which is the Turkish treasury.
For stopping this, they have to sanction the State, the Republic of Turkey, which is almost impossible and really odd, except when they are at a direct war. Both sides know that, but they like that idea and save their face and day.
On one hand, the US took out Turkey from the F-35 project and sanctioned, but at the same time delivered recently the F-110 jet fighter engines for the Turkish fighter jet project MMU. How this is happening? Well, exactly as I have explained above.
Now, cool and fine, but what about the numerous Turkish indigenous projects which are developed and produced en masses in Turkey, how they are financed?
Here comes this institute…
A semi-state institute
Why semi? Again past bad experience. İt's a some kind NGO with their own private Fund. Called as Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri Güçlendirme Vakfı (Simple translated: Foundation for the strengthening of the Turkish Armed Forces)
İt's a foundation build for the Turkish Army as an NGO, where the Turkish Army and the Turkish citizens own a fund, where the largest Turkish defense companies are inside.
Who are these defense companies?
Aselsan (48. largest in the world)
TAI (53. largest in the world)
Roketsan (89. largest in the world)
Havelsan (99. largest in the world)
Aspilsan
İsbir
They combined earn a whopping amount of yearly 10 billion dollars on revenue with appr. 3–4 billions of profit.
And the state does not spend a single penny for new indigenous projects directly, but rather it's done with the profit of these companies again by these companies themselves with the superstition and permission of TGSKV. Last year they have spend even during pandemic an amount of 1,8 billion dollar into R&D.
Only when it's about a giant project such as the MMU, then the treasury steps in and funds the R&D and the TAI builds the infrastructure and organization on its own. It's a kind of sharing risks.
But TGSKV does not end here. I told above that Turkish citizens also own this foundation right? How? Well, there are numerous taxes in Turkey, starting from lottery to aid donations, where a part goes directly into the treasure of this foundation and they spend it back equally to these companies for whatever they want to build again. Yearly taxes reach 4–5 billion dollars.
I continue.
Turkish Presidential Department
As the name suggests, this is a secret fund, where nobody, except the national security council know how much money is inside. In past, this was given into the hand of the PM of Turkey for top secret operations for the security of the nation, but after the change into a Presidential system, it's now in the budget of the Presidential house. This fund pays special operations, including the procurement of special equipment for these operations of the army. The national security agency was also funded in past for operations via this fund, but now they are separated from this and have their own increased annual budget.
And lastly…
Oyak
This is a fund which is owned directly from the Turkish Armed Forces.
It's the second largest fund of Turkey, with a yearly turn of 20 billion dollars and assets worth 100 billion dollars…
It's active in 8 different strategic sectors, ranging from automobile to metallurgy, resource extracting to refining, key technologies etc.
The reason for the existence of this giant is again past bad experiences of Turkey and that they see their security way more important than anything else. It was emphasized, that the Turkish Army, if the time comes where the state is under full attack or sanction, to use its own assets to finance himself, own the key industries to get the resources and needed materials on time and indigenously or through their foreign partners to overcome any difficulty.
It owns many stock market listed key companies and every officer inside of the army pays monthly from their salaries a certain amount of percentage to help this fund grow and become some return when they retire. That's why the officers of the Turkish army become in general the highest amount of retirement packages, more than any other sector position.
Now, does the defense figures on statistics list of SIPRI and others seem anywhere close?
Therefore, do not give any importance about these numbers and always take it a bit with salt and pepper.
Conclusion:
It's safe to assume, that the Turkish spending on defense annually amounts more than 30 billion dollars a year easily and if we take also into account that 75 % of these spendings go for indigenous Turkish products rather than to foreign countries and the cost effect ratio is at least 1/5 to any western country, the worth of the Turkish defense spendings a year reach the TOP 5 or 6 in the world.
Even when everything would go bankrupt in Turkey, the army is never out of money or resources.
Thanks.
----
I hope this will clear some confusion and help us understand more about the relationships between various state institutions.
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones,...
Answer: I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes. One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizatio...
Also seems like a detailed post but I would like to see more proof to this.
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Yes the actual defense budget is much more than 20 billions USD. You can’t run so many projects with just 20 billions, that’s impossible. Let’s say that it is a flexible budget that which we scale up or down according to projects / needs.
Heartbang
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excellent information. but also dangerous information. we shouldn't be this eager to divulge this kind of information.There's confusion about Turkey's defense budget. I'm gonna share a post that explains the structure of the Turkey's spending and how it exactly covers all the projects' costs.
The post is from Quora. The question is;
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones, what is the reason behind?
The answer;
-----
I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes.
One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizations, institutions who write about defense:
- Global fire power (funded BS page, who claims to report only about quantity, but even gets this wrong by a huge margin)
- SIPRI (who collects mostly the informations from news coverage and that most of the time in English)
- Finally, some newspaper articles, again in English from established media's.
This brings us automatically to wrong conclusions, because it's like many other economic statistics out there following western centric views and missing many things about other countries, that does not run with the same principles.
The second reason is the mistake of calculating foreign defense expenditures, importing weapon systems, as the sole interpretation of the defense purchases of a country, while neglecting totally that some of these countries are also developers and producers by themselves.
Now when we talk about Turkey, the problem and root is the same. Turkey, unlike many western countries or other counterparts in the lists, has a “decentralised" defense spending and is on the top also a major producer and exporter of these arms.
What does this mean I will elaborate a bit here:
The defense budget of Turkey was voted in December of 2020 as around 138 billion liras, 18 billion dollars to that time of currency exchange, 15 billion dollars now after the fluctuation of lira.
According to the budget orientation in Turkey, the loss of 3 billion through exchange fluctuation need to be covered from the state at the end of year.
What is the defence budget in Turkey and the misunderstanding which these statistics referring to?
It's generally called “Savunma bütçesi" and is a collection of departments: defense ministry, gendarmerie, coastal guard, etc.
This money is not there to buy new stuff or develop new projects, where this never ending questions here comes about “how Turkey will afford this or that weapon, if budget is X?”
The budget here goes for: salaries, replacement of small ammunition, repair and maintenance, restructure of buildings, organizational spendings, fuel and civilian spendings.
Then where does the money comes for new procurements?
This here is the Defense Secretariat of Turkey
They are tasked with the tenders and organizational supervision over new projects or procurements if the Turkish army asks for any need.
But, do they have any budget? Except a small amount for their organizational structure and salaries, NO.
Why? There is a trick behind.
Because Turkey has faced for 60 years openly or hiddenly many sanctions or restrictions from other countries, this institution is actually the superior department, but the final decision for procurement and payment is not done from them, but the Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı (Treasury and Finance Ministry).
Budget: 70 billion dollars for 2021
That means, when for example an S-400 system is bought, the tender, decision is made from SSB, the contract is signed by the guys above and the money goes out of their coffer.
So what is the trick here?
The US has sanctioned the SSB with CAATSA for S-400 and took two executives of them into the travel ban list, which technically and theoretically is right in first sight, but that does not affect anything, because Turkey proceeds actually to get stuff everywhere including the USA via the end contractor, which is the Turkish treasury.
For stopping this, they have to sanction the State, the Republic of Turkey, which is almost impossible and really odd, except when they are at a direct war. Both sides know that, but they like that idea and save their face and day.
On one hand, the US took out Turkey from the F-35 project and sanctioned, but at the same time delivered recently the F-110 jet fighter engines for the Turkish fighter jet project MMU. How this is happening? Well, exactly as I have explained above.
Now, cool and fine, but what about the numerous Turkish indigenous projects which are developed and produced en masses in Turkey, how they are financed?
Here comes this institute…
A semi-state institute
Why semi? Again past bad experience. İt's a some kind NGO with their own private Fund. Called as Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri Güçlendirme Vakfı (Simple translated: Foundation for the strengthening of the Turkish Armed Forces)
İt's a foundation build for the Turkish Army as an NGO, where the Turkish Army and the Turkish citizens own a fund, where the largest Turkish defense companies are inside.
Who are these defense companies?
Aselsan (48. largest in the world)
TAI (53. largest in the world)
Roketsan (89. largest in the world)
Havelsan (99. largest in the world)
Aspilsan
İsbir
They combined earn a whopping amount of yearly 10 billion dollars on revenue with appr. 3–4 billions of profit.
And the state does not spend a single penny for new indigenous projects directly, but rather it's done with the profit of these companies again by these companies themselves with the superstition and permission of TGSKV. Last year they have spend even during pandemic an amount of 1,8 billion dollar into R&D.
Only when it's about a giant project such as the MMU, then the treasury steps in and funds the R&D and the TAI builds the infrastructure and organization on its own. It's a kind of sharing risks.
But TGSKV does not end here. I told above that Turkish citizens also own this foundation right? How? Well, there are numerous taxes in Turkey, starting from lottery to aid donations, where a part goes directly into the treasure of this foundation and they spend it back equally to these companies for whatever they want to build again. Yearly taxes reach 4–5 billion dollars.
I continue.
Turkish Presidential Department
As the name suggests, this is a secret fund, where nobody, except the national security council know how much money is inside. In past, this was given into the hand of the PM of Turkey for top secret operations for the security of the nation, but after the change into a Presidential system, it's now in the budget of the Presidential house. This fund pays special operations, including the procurement of special equipment for these operations of the army. The national security agency was also funded in past for operations via this fund, but now they are separated from this and have their own increased annual budget.
And lastly…
Oyak
This is a fund which is owned directly from the Turkish Armed Forces.
It's the second largest fund of Turkey, with a yearly turn of 20 billion dollars and assets worth 100 billion dollars…
It's active in 8 different strategic sectors, ranging from automobile to metallurgy, resource extracting to refining, key technologies etc.
The reason for the existence of this giant is again past bad experiences of Turkey and that they see their security way more important than anything else. It was emphasized, that the Turkish Army, if the time comes where the state is under full attack or sanction, to use its own assets to finance himself, own the key industries to get the resources and needed materials on time and indigenously or through their foreign partners to overcome any difficulty.
It owns many stock market listed key companies and every officer inside of the army pays monthly from their salaries a certain amount of percentage to help this fund grow and become some return when they retire. That's why the officers of the Turkish army become in general the highest amount of retirement packages, more than any other sector position.
Now, does the defense figures on statistics list of SIPRI and others seem anywhere close?
Therefore, do not give any importance about these numbers and always take it a bit with salt and pepper.
Conclusion:
It's safe to assume, that the Turkish spending on defense annually amounts more than 30 billion dollars a year easily and if we take also into account that 75 % of these spendings go for indigenous Turkish products rather than to foreign countries and the cost effect ratio is at least 1/5 to any western country, the worth of the Turkish defense spendings a year reach the TOP 5 or 6 in the world.
Even when everything would go bankrupt in Turkey, the army is never out of money or resources.
Thanks.
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I hope this will clear some confusion and help us understand more about the relationships between various state institutions.
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones,...
Answer: I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes. One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizatio...
i suggest you delete this post. ill also report this post in Quora and make sure its gone.
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While the explanation of how the budget for defense sector comprises is neat. We do not have anyone doing checks that the government spends the money as intended. Government is involved or has final say in all those areas, or people they appointed themselves.There's confusion about Turkey's defense budget. I'm gonna share a post that explains the structure of the Turkey's spending and how it exactly covers all the projects' costs.
The post is from Quora. The question is;
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones, what is the reason behind?
The answer;
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I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes.
One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizations, institutions who write about defense:
- Global fire power (funded BS page, who claims to report only about quantity, but even gets this wrong by a huge margin)
- SIPRI (who collects mostly the informations from news coverage and that most of the time in English)
- Finally, some newspaper articles, again in English from established media's.
This brings us automatically to wrong conclusions, because it's like many other economic statistics out there following western centric views and missing many things about other countries, that does not run with the same principles.
The second reason is the mistake of calculating foreign defense expenditures, importing weapon systems, as the sole interpretation of the defense purchases of a country, while neglecting totally that some of these countries are also developers and producers by themselves.
Now when we talk about Turkey, the problem and root is the same. Turkey, unlike many western countries or other counterparts in the lists, has a “decentralised" defense spending and is on the top also a major producer and exporter of these arms.
What does this mean I will elaborate a bit here:
The defense budget of Turkey was voted in December of 2020 as around 138 billion liras, 18 billion dollars to that time of currency exchange, 15 billion dollars now after the fluctuation of lira.
According to the budget orientation in Turkey, the loss of 3 billion through exchange fluctuation need to be covered from the state at the end of year.
What is the defence budget in Turkey and the misunderstanding which these statistics referring to?
It's generally called “Savunma bütçesi" and is a collection of departments: defense ministry, gendarmerie, coastal guard, etc.
This money is not there to buy new stuff or develop new projects, where this never ending questions here comes about “how Turkey will afford this or that weapon, if budget is X?”
The budget here goes for: salaries, replacement of small ammunition, repair and maintenance, restructure of buildings, organizational spendings, fuel and civilian spendings.
Then where does the money comes for new procurements?
This here is the Defense Secretariat of Turkey
They are tasked with the tenders and organizational supervision over new projects or procurements if the Turkish army asks for any need.
But, do they have any budget? Except a small amount for their organizational structure and salaries, NO.
Why? There is a trick behind.
Because Turkey has faced for 60 years openly or hiddenly many sanctions or restrictions from other countries, this institution is actually the superior department, but the final decision for procurement and payment is not done from them, but the Hazine ve Maliye Bakanlığı (Treasury and Finance Ministry).
Budget: 70 billion dollars for 2021
That means, when for example an S-400 system is bought, the tender, decision is made from SSB, the contract is signed by the guys above and the money goes out of their coffer.
So what is the trick here?
The US has sanctioned the SSB with CAATSA for S-400 and took two executives of them into the travel ban list, which technically and theoretically is right in first sight, but that does not affect anything, because Turkey proceeds actually to get stuff everywhere including the USA via the end contractor, which is the Turkish treasury.
For stopping this, they have to sanction the State, the Republic of Turkey, which is almost impossible and really odd, except when they are at a direct war. Both sides know that, but they like that idea and save their face and day.
On one hand, the US took out Turkey from the F-35 project and sanctioned, but at the same time delivered recently the F-110 jet fighter engines for the Turkish fighter jet project MMU. How this is happening? Well, exactly as I have explained above.
Now, cool and fine, but what about the numerous Turkish indigenous projects which are developed and produced en masses in Turkey, how they are financed?
Here comes this institute…
A semi-state institute
Why semi? Again past bad experience. İt's a some kind NGO with their own private Fund. Called as Türk Silahlı Kuvvetleri Güçlendirme Vakfı (Simple translated: Foundation for the strengthening of the Turkish Armed Forces)
İt's a foundation build for the Turkish Army as an NGO, where the Turkish Army and the Turkish citizens own a fund, where the largest Turkish defense companies are inside.
Who are these defense companies?
Aselsan (48. largest in the world)
TAI (53. largest in the world)
Roketsan (89. largest in the world)
Havelsan (99. largest in the world)
Aspilsan
İsbir
They combined earn a whopping amount of yearly 10 billion dollars on revenue with appr. 3–4 billions of profit.
And the state does not spend a single penny for new indigenous projects directly, but rather it's done with the profit of these companies again by these companies themselves with the superstition and permission of TGSKV. Last year they have spend even during pandemic an amount of 1,8 billion dollar into R&D.
Only when it's about a giant project such as the MMU, then the treasury steps in and funds the R&D and the TAI builds the infrastructure and organization on its own. It's a kind of sharing risks.
But TGSKV does not end here. I told above that Turkish citizens also own this foundation right? How? Well, there are numerous taxes in Turkey, starting from lottery to aid donations, where a part goes directly into the treasure of this foundation and they spend it back equally to these companies for whatever they want to build again. Yearly taxes reach 4–5 billion dollars.
I continue.
Turkish Presidential Department
As the name suggests, this is a secret fund, where nobody, except the national security council know how much money is inside. In past, this was given into the hand of the PM of Turkey for top secret operations for the security of the nation, but after the change into a Presidential system, it's now in the budget of the Presidential house. This fund pays special operations, including the procurement of special equipment for these operations of the army. The national security agency was also funded in past for operations via this fund, but now they are separated from this and have their own increased annual budget.
And lastly…
Oyak
This is a fund which is owned directly from the Turkish Armed Forces.
It's the second largest fund of Turkey, with a yearly turn of 20 billion dollars and assets worth 100 billion dollars…
It's active in 8 different strategic sectors, ranging from automobile to metallurgy, resource extracting to refining, key technologies etc.
The reason for the existence of this giant is again past bad experiences of Turkey and that they see their security way more important than anything else. It was emphasized, that the Turkish Army, if the time comes where the state is under full attack or sanction, to use its own assets to finance himself, own the key industries to get the resources and needed materials on time and indigenously or through their foreign partners to overcome any difficulty.
It owns many stock market listed key companies and every officer inside of the army pays monthly from their salaries a certain amount of percentage to help this fund grow and become some return when they retire. That's why the officers of the Turkish army become in general the highest amount of retirement packages, more than any other sector position.
Now, does the defense figures on statistics list of SIPRI and others seem anywhere close?
Therefore, do not give any importance about these numbers and always take it a bit with salt and pepper.
Conclusion:
It's safe to assume, that the Turkish spending on defense annually amounts more than 30 billion dollars a year easily and if we take also into account that 75 % of these spendings go for indigenous Turkish products rather than to foreign countries and the cost effect ratio is at least 1/5 to any western country, the worth of the Turkish defense spendings a year reach the TOP 5 or 6 in the world.
Even when everything would go bankrupt in Turkey, the army is never out of money or resources.
Thanks.
----
I hope this will clear some confusion and help us understand more about the relationships between various state institutions.
What is the actual defense budget of Turkey? I see many concurring numbers among statistics between foreign sources and the Turkish ones,...
Answer: I understand you in this. There are loads of confusion about this because most of the people who wants to know what a country spends on defense nowadays, even so called experts doing some crucial mistakes. One of the mistakes is too look into statistics from various websites, organizatio...
That is the part that worries me.
100 retired admirals signed a document criticizing government, and they’re in prison waiting to be judged and it’s been nearly 1 year. The letter was a warnin
A goverment that does that to it’s own people is anything but trust worthy.
It’s wrong to postpone spendings to save money in defense sector.
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i thought these guys were in prison because of coup.
I think the most time-consuming issue in our marine programs is the manufacture of components. So, like missile and Midas ready for class i. I don't think it's about money. You can check out the series of network-centric chats on youtube.
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We should have made these years ago and not postponed it. Better late than never.
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The OPV project is being delayed because one of the subcontractors' incompetency. They had all the necessary data from Ada class project yet required an extension three times. And the mere reason they grabbed the project was their connections.
There were alternative, reliable contractors but they went with that one who couldn't finish the job, yet. It supposed to be launched by end of 2022, even earlier in the original plan.
No way it can be commissioned in 2023.
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What guarentee do we have that they haven’t sold the information to highest payer. That’s what worries me on top of being incomptetent.
BalkanTurk90
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What MIT is doing ? They can do it with orders from outside for some profits
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There wasn't even a bidding, same will happen to TF2000. If given to the same subcontractor it will face the same fate.
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I thought it was ASFAT that was responsible for making these ships.
Being a state owned and run set up, you would think that such delays would not occur.
But I guess if they have to employ subcontractors that are incompetent and bribes are in play, anything goes!
That is a shame!
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is STM part of ASFAT ?
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No. But Both are State controlled.
STM is a Company set up by TR Presidential Defence presidency SSB.
STM - Hakkımızda
Savunma sistemi ihtiyaçlarına çözümler geliştiren STM Savunma Teknolojileri'ne dair ayrıntılı bilgi için Hakkımızda sayfasını ziyaret edin.
www.stm.com.tr
ASFAT is set up by MOD of Turkey.
ASFAT
ASFAT, 27 askerî fabrika ve 3 askerî tersanenin nitelikli ve alanında uzman işgücü ile 30 yılı aşkın inşa, modernizasyon, tamir, bakım ve idame tecrübesine sahiptir.
www.asfat.com.tr
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Asfat nearly has no technical personnel apart from the ones to do a check and they are short on personnel*. They are more of a project management and marketing company who utilizes available sources of the Army.
They outsource technical or engineering jobs to subcontractors, including the design (sometimes with involvement of DPO).
*They want to become like STM and establish design office as strong as theirs, for that reason they intended to do a fast-track student absorbtion from universities, hiring succesfull 4th graders and training them through a 1 year programme. I don't know the status haven't heard any progresses.
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There are other shipyards like istanbul shipyard, golcuk shipyard. Are these part of ASFAT or independent ?No. But Both are State controlled.
STM is a Company set up by TR Presidential Defence presidency SSB.
STM - Hakkımızda
Savunma sistemi ihtiyaçlarına çözümler geliştiren STM Savunma Teknolojileri'ne dair ayrıntılı bilgi için Hakkımızda sayfasını ziyaret edin.
ASFAT is set up by MOD of Turkey.
ASFAT
ASFAT, 27 askerî fabrika ve 3 askerî tersanenin nitelikli ve alanında uzman işgücü ile 30 yılı aşkın inşa, modernizasyon, tamir, bakım ve idame tecrübesine sahiptir.www.asfat.com.tr
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Golcuk is owned by the Turkish Navy.
Istanbul shipyard is a private entity but owned by SAHA. Just checkout the board members . (Chairman is Haluk Bayraktar. Some members include; T.Kotil, Murat Ikinci, Haluk Gorgun, Hakan Altinay)
İSTANBUL DENİZCİLİK GEMİ İNŞA SANAYİ VE TİCARET A.Ş. - SAHA İstanbul
www.sahaistanbul.org.tr
