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Sanchez

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I would much prefer that we devote our resources to a nuclear submarine program instead of a carrier in the first place. With our geographical location, nuclear subs would help us far more than a carrier.
If we have the need of an SSN over an AIP SSK with quadruple the endurance, we probably also have the need for a carrier. What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS? Greater endurance over open seas. If we have a need to be present in the Indian Ocean with such a submarine, we should also have the relevant amphibious force projection capability with organic air support as well.

It's only fitting, they don't exist in separate planes. And don't quote me on this, but the carrier will probably be cheaper to run than an SSN.
 

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Once vertical launch capability is achieved on an air-independent propelled attack submarine under the MILDEN program, nuclear propulsion is all that remains—a politically sense, when considered in conjunction with the Navy’s expansion vision after reaching deterrent power projection.

If my memory serves me correctly, the president also said in one of his speeches that he had such a wish. This may have more to do with which institution provides this technical content to the person who writes the text on the prompter rather than a personal wish of the president. For example, while some people labeled the aircraft carrier as the president's personal dream, today it is understood that the naval forces were working on the issue before it was even included in the speeches.

Also, I don't know if a parallel can be drawn, but we often hear news about wanting to produce our own nuclear fuel rods for our power plants, and also about wanting the SMR industry in our country within industrial cooparations.
 

IC3M@N FX

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The question is where to get these special nuclear reactors from, neither the USA, China/Russia and the EU will sell them nor will they provide the technical know-how. Nuclear reactors for ships and submarines are needed if you want to pursue absolute geopolitics.
Nobody would want to support us there, nobody wants an additional player at the table, so there is only one option left... to focus our own development in this direction. But it will be at least 10 years before something useful comes along.
 

Yasar_TR

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If we have the need of an SSN over an AIP SSK with quadruple the endurance, we probably also have the need for a carrier. What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS? Greater endurance over open seas. If we have a need to be present in the Indian Ocean with such a submarine, we should also have the relevant amphibious force projection capability with organic air support as well.

It's only fitting, they don't exist in separate planes. And don't quote me on this, but the carrier will probably be cheaper to run than an SSN.
A carrier will need a submarine to protect her. But an attack submarine doesn’t need a carrier to perform her duties.
The clear advantage of a nuclear submarine is apparent, whichever way look at it.

Quote:
The submarine, due to its stealth advantage and relatively cheaper cost compared to aircraft carriers has been seen by many as a far better alternative to the expensive and “vulnerable” aircraft carriers.
unquote.

The main advantage of the submarine is the ability to operate separately from other forces, unlike carriers, who must be escorted by other ships to protect them from attack. Submarine’s stealth is also a very big advantage. Where as carriers are in the open and susceptible to air, surface and under water attacks.

A 4700 ton French Suffren Nuclear submarine cost 1.6 billion dollars each.
7000 ton Astute nuclear submarine cost 2.1 billion dollars each. Annual cost is at 12.5 million dollars.


Annual cost of QE2 Carrier is 120 million dollars. That does not include the operational cost of the air wing.


@IC3M@N FX has hit the nail on the head!
Reactor is the heart of any nuclear submarine

Interesting article on the subject
 
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boredaf

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What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS
As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but nuclear submarines usually carry far more torpedoes/missiles than diesel submarines, as they are usually far larger. And since Mediterranean is deep sea, they could remain pretty well hidden and remain submerged for far longer which gives them an advantage in first strike capability. So it wouldn't be for just force projection, it would increase our naval power in our own waters and I think that should be our first and foremost aim when planning not just our navy but all of our military.
 

Kaan Azman 

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Idea of the Navy appears to be a nuclear submarine being a pillar of the CSG, not a substitute for MUGEM. They see it as a paver and an extra eye to hang around at the front.
 

uçuyorum

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As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but nuclear submarines usually carry far more torpedoes/missiles than diesel submarines, as they are usually far larger. And since Mediterranean is deep sea, they could remain pretty well hidden and remain submerged for far longer which gives them an advantage in first strike capability. So it wouldn't be for just force projection, it would increase our naval power in our own waters and I think that should be our first and foremost aim when planning not just our navy but all of our military.
I mean depends on size. Ohio class is 16000 tonnes and can carry 7 tomahawk in a cell or same cell can carry one ballistic missile. It's huge, heavier than ticonderoga cruiser
 

boredaf

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Yes that's what I was responding to, you can have huge nuclear subs, there are those smaller than milden as well.
And I would expect that we would want something definitely bigger. Then, we can have more than enough force to protect our claims around Mediterranean with far fewer risks than a carrier group would face.
 

Anmdt

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What value does an SSN add over a large AIP SSK with VLS? Greater endurance over open seas.
Particularly these two matters:

Higher submerged speed - evasion once detected or fleeing after delivering payloads (mines, spy AUVs etc.), yet contradicts the silence propulsion while doing so and only to be used when submarine is "detected", or when the crew believes they are detected.

Eliminating snorkeling, it is done frequently and not really a cool event, the sub can neither cease it immediately and dive, if caught, and it is necessary for the batteries.

Plus batteries are not cool, heats up and constantly cooled if loaded heavily and generates gases (particularly at high speeds).

Does it worth the bang? I am not sure too, it is currently just a plan ahead of Milden. We first will have Milden-I, then Milden-II and maybe lastly what they call as "Nukden". Officially circulating with the high command so they have it in the long term plans since awhile ago, but "long term" here is crucial. Probably referrring to 20+, 30+ years from now.

And i am assured at those dates SMR's will be something similar to submarine diesel engines which you may plug and go.
 

Saithan

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Particularly these two matters:

Higher submerged speed - evasion once detected or fleeing after delivering payloads (mines, spy AUVs etc.), yet contradicts the silence propulsion while doing so and only to be used when submarine is "detected", or when the crew believes they are detected.

Eliminating snorkeling, it is done frequently and not really a cool event, the sub can neither cease it immediately and dive, if caught, and it is necessary for the batteries.

Plus batteries are not cool, heats up and constantly cooled if loaded heavily and generates gases (particularly at high speeds).

Does it worth the bang? I am not sure too, it is currently just a plan ahead of Milden. We first will have Milden-I, then Milden-II and maybe lastly what they call as "Nukden". Officially circulating with the high command so they have it in the long term plans since awhile ago, but "long term" here is crucial. Probably referrring to 20+, 30+ years from now.

And i am assured at those dates SMR's will be something similar to submarine diesel engines which you may plug and go.
Do you know if there any work in progres on making smaller and more compact nuclear power plant for submersible platforms ? In the world I mean. I would imagine that we would need to be able to build our own nuclear power plants in order to venture into anything like nuclear subs, but I could be wrong.
 

Sanchez

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New brochures for TF-2000, I Class, OPV and PN Milgem from ASFAT.


1738229265884.png

1738229435380.png

1738229608398.png

1738229400759.png


Thanks to Catfishblues.
 

Yasar_TR

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Attack submarines are the most vital weapons of every navy.

The modern attack submarine is, in fact, a wolf that hunts alone. Apart from protecting surface ships and convoys, they are the nightmare of every surface platform with their primary mission of stealth attack; and of coastal and deep land targets with their long-range cruise missiles.

We can examine modern attack submarines in 3 different categories in terms of their propulsion systems:

1. Diesel engine/diesel generator: These move with their diesel engines on the surface (and at depths close to the surface - snorkel depth). They also charge their batteries with a diesel generator. They are driven silently while submerged with their lead-acid batteries. In the newest models of these, their lead-acid batteries are evolving into much more efficient Li-Ion batteries.
The speed of submarines with lead-acid batteries does not exceed 20 knots while submerged. They also quickly consume the battery at this speed. Their duration at depth is measured in hours; at economical speeds, a few days. Li-Ion battery submarines can stay at depths for 1 week-10 days and can move at high speed in an emergency. Japanese Taigei submarines are a good example of this.

2. Air-independent propulsion submarines. (AIP ): The best example of these is the Reis Class submarines. These submarines produce electricity while submerged with hydrogen fuel cell technology and Proton Exchange Membrane, keep the lead-acid batteries constantly charged and can stay underwater for 2-3 weeks without surfacing. However, they make 4 knots economically and 8 knots at high speed. If they move at 20 knots, there is no difference from the diesel submarine above as they would deplete their batteries. When the AIP and PEM systems are not working, they are standard diesel-powered submarines.

3. Nuclear-powered submarines: These are submarines that are propelled by a small nuclear reactor and can move silently with the electricity provided by this reactor; in addition, they can stay underwater for months by obtaining oxygen from the water with this electricity. However, they have dive times that do not exceed 90 days in terms of the food they can carry. Also, since the psychological health of the crew is taken into consideration while submerged, very long dives are not made. These submarines can reach speeds of 30+ knots underwater. Since the reactor can theoretically operate for decades (20-30 years), it is possible for these submarines to operate for a very long time without stopping at a port.

Japanese Soryu class submarines were AIP submarines. However, they produced the last 2 submarines as Li-Ion class. And they are producing the last Taigei class with Li-Ion propulsion too.
Japanese submarine captains complained about the slow speeds of AIP submarines, emphasizing the importance of getting away from the area they are in quickly, after using torpedoes, and in an emergency, and as a result, the Japanese Navy turned to the Li-Ion system in its new submarine concept.

Inspired by the Japanese, we are also studying developing a Li-Ion propulsion system. Although AIP propulsion is planned for Milden, the complexity and external dependency of this system may push us towards Li-Ion powered submarines.

Although nuclear powered submarines seem to be the Nirvana of this business and these submarines can go much faster and dive deeper, the fact that the reactor is constantly running means that many pumps and mechanisms produce noise. In this respect, modern Li-Ion and AIP powered submarines are quieter. These features have been highlighted many times in naval operations.
 

dBSPL

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Another excellent post. Thanks Yasar_TR üstad.

***

IMHO, my shortest categorization mentality is that submarines are an offensive element, while surface platforms are basically for area dominance.

Submarines can paralyze a navy's logistical links or maritime trade, and in some specific cases even its surface strike force. This is a very strategic force that can add another layer up front to the AD area established by surface and other support means and keep the enemy's power projection away from territorial waters. Fortunately, our naval tradition has given due importance to the submarine fleet for decades. If we gain access to nuclear-propulsion in the coming decades, we will be able to initiate this deterrent from their seas wherever the enemy is, with submarines that are air-independent and capable of high-speed submerged cruise.
 

UkroTurk

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Attack submarines are the most vital weapons of every navy.

The modern attack submarine is, in fact, a wolf that hunts alone. Apart from protecting surface ships and convoys, they are the nightmare of every surface platform with their primary mission of stealth attack; and of coastal and deep land targets with their long-range cruise missiles.

We can examine modern attack submarines in 3 different categories in terms of their propulsion systems:

1. Diesel engine/diesel generator: These move with their diesel engines on the surface (and at depths close to the surface - snorkel depth). They also charge their batteries with a diesel generator. They are driven silently while submerged with their lead-acid batteries. In the newest models of these, their lead-acid batteries are evolving into much more efficient Li-Ion batteries.
The speed of submarines with lead-acid batteries does not exceed 20 knots while submerged. They also quickly consume the battery at this speed. Their duration at depth is measured in hours; at economical speeds, a few days. Li-Ion battery submarines can stay at depths for 1 week-10 days and can move at high speed in an emergency. Japanese Taigei submarines are a good example of this.

2. Air-independent propulsion submarines. (AIP ): The best example of these is the Reis Class submarines. These submarines produce electricity while submerged with hydrogen fuel cell technology and Proton Exchange Membrane, keep the lead-acid batteries constantly charged and can stay underwater for 2-3 weeks without surfacing. However, they make 4 knots economically and 8 knots at high speed. If they move at 20 knots, there is no difference from the diesel submarine above as they would deplete their batteries. When the AIP and PEM systems are not working, they are standard diesel-powered submarines.

3. Nuclear-powered submarines: These are submarines that are propelled by a small nuclear reactor and can move silently with the electricity provided by this reactor; in addition, they can stay underwater for months by obtaining oxygen from the water with this electricity. However, they have dive times that do not exceed 90 days in terms of the food they can carry. Also, since the psychological health of the crew is taken into consideration while submerged, very long dives are not made. These submarines can reach speeds of 30+ knots underwater. Since the reactor can theoretically operate for decades (20-30 years), it is possible for these submarines to operate for a very long time without stopping at a port.

Japanese Soryu class submarines were AIP submarines. However, they produced the last 2 submarines as Li-Ion class. And they are producing the last Taigei class with Li-Ion propulsion too.
Japanese submarine captains complained about the slow speeds of AIP submarines, emphasizing the importance of getting away from the area they are in quickly, after using torpedoes, and in an emergency, and as a result, the Japanese Navy turned to the Li-Ion system in its new submarine concept.

Inspired by the Japanese, we are also studying developing a Li-Ion propulsion system. Although AIP propulsion is planned for Milden, the complexity and external dependency of this system may push us towards Li-Ion powered submarines.

Although nuclear powered submarines seem to be the Nirvana of this business and these submarines can go much faster and dive deeper, the fact that the reactor is constantly running means that many pumps and mechanisms produce noise. In this respect, modern Li-Ion and AIP powered submarines are quieter. These features have been highlighted many times in naval operations.
What about Li-ion batteries with fuel cell hydrogen combination?😅 Underwater when you need speed use Li-ion batteries, when you just need cruising or approaching the territory of missionswitch to fuel-cell hydrogen.
They could add our hydrogen Milden some Li-ion batteries which would give flexibility of speed in critical conditions.


Even i found the place for additional Li-ion batteries. Wait.

IMG_20250202_175814.jpg


Make the Li-ion battery replacable and use when the mission requires additional speed. You don't always need underwater delivery vessel.

Jesus Christ I am genius 😎
 
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Fuzuli NL

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What about Li-ion batteries with fuel cell hydrogen combination?😅 Underwater when you need speed use Li-ion batteries, when you just need cruising or approaching the territory of missionswitch to fuel-cell hydrogen.
They could add our hydrogen Milden some Li-ion batteries which would give flexibility of speed in critical conditions.


Even i found the place for additional Li-ion batteries. Wait.

View attachment 73348

Make the Li-ion battery replacable and use when the mission requires additional speed. You don't always need underwater delivery vessel.

Jesus Christ I am genius 😎
I don't think you're taking the immense underwater pressure into consideration.
 
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