TR Naval Programs

[Anmdt]

I don't know anything about inner workings of our Navy or boat building, but, given that we seem to be building a closer relationship with RR and UK in general, I wouldn't be surprised if the choice ends up being RR.

That would be surprising, especially after TEI was given the green light for assembly and partial production of the LM500 and LM2500, and has in the meantime secured a licence for repair, overhaul and maintenance of the LM2500.

 

[boredaf]

That would be surprising, especially after TEI was given the green light for assembly and partial production of the LM500 and LM2500, and has in the meantime secured a licence for repair, overhaul and maintenance of the LM2500.

As I said, I'm not that well-versed but THY's big purchase also came with RR as engine supplier which isn't what they used as far as I know, I feel like there is an aim to pivot away from US made engines across the board. But we'll see, maybe they'll go with what they know best and are most comfortable with.

 

[UkroTurk]

I think we puzzled with two term definitions. "Fast Attack Craft"and "Missile Boat".

I would prefer both of them so let's go for two different design.

1: Multipurpose FAC for longer range and endurance around 1000 miles with other cabalities. 600-700tons.But slower than missile boats.

2. Missile Boat for 500 miles range but faster and lighter 200-300tons.
I don't think USVs could fulfill this role currently.

Both must have high end sensors and self air defense capabilities.

Edit: Most important thing they all must be made from stealth materials. Especially missile boats.

 

[uçuyorum]

My expectation for navy slightly resembles that of russia though I know russia isn't best country to mirror. Nonetheless. you know they don't have the best budget and only one carrier which is always under repairs. But not having a carrier doesn't mean we shouldn't have proper airstrike capability for our navy, and a large inventory of cruise missiles is a formidable air force of its own when needed. We have seen russia use even kilo class submarines as missile trucks with kalibr when they no longer had air protection from Moskva, under a real war scenario it is doubtful if we will have enough control over nearby skies or when doing operations abroad. They also have karakurt class corvettes equipped with kalibr.

Right now we are starting to equip or vessels with Atmaca, which has limited capability against surface targets. However we are also working on Kara Atmaca and Gezgin. Once these are available, we should prioritize equipping as many vessels with these as possible. Reis class, Stm500, Milden, TF2000, TTFAC, Hisar OPV etc. Basically we should have enough to put on as many vessels as possible big and small. Having several hundred long range cruise missiles ready to strike, just like US navy with thsir arleigh burkes loaded with tomahawks, would give is significant force projection capability and be a deterrent against threats in nearby waters, even those with strong air defence would stuggle under large volley of such missiles. Especially submarines will be crucial when we may lack dominance over air and our surface vessels are threatened. I am writing this motivated by recent article on strategic importance of submarines by Cem Gürdeniz.

Also note that while we do not have the capability to purchase some of the key platforms like new fighters, new tanks and howitzer for at least several years for Land Forces and Air Force, at least our Navy should be given a higher budget to increase their deterrence capability.

 

[uçuyorum]

I think we puzzled with two term definitions. "Fast Attack Craft"and "Missile Boat".

I would prefer both of them so let's go for two different design.

1: Multipurpose FAC for longer range and endurance around 1000 miles with other cabalities. 600-700tons.But slower than missile boats.

2. Missile Boat for 500 miles range but faster and lighter 200-300tons.
I don't think USVs could fulfill this role currently.

Both must have high end sensors and self air defense capabilities.

If we try to make use as many common subsystems as possible I too support the idea of splitting project into two if given the budget. Light corvette and smaller FAC would make it easier to finalize requirements.

 

[UkroTurk]

Rapid Stealth light missile boat examples

Klewang-class fast attack craft - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Skjold class Norway

PLAN Type 23

İran is constructing

https://news.usni.org/2022/06/30/potential-new-stealth-missile-boat-under-construction-in-iran

Or such stealthy designs. No idea about sea worthiness

AFAIK at high speeds wave piercing design is important for missile boats.

STM`s Design for the Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft Project

The Turkish Type Fast Attack Craft (FAC) Project was initiated in 2013 by the Presidency of Defense Industries (SSB) in order to destroy/neutralize enemy elements and to ensure the survival of its own elements. Within the framework of the Turkish Naval Forces Command (TNFC)’s mission of sea...

www.defenceturkey.com

IMO FAC 55 Design is better for high speed.

 

[dBSPL]

When it comes to extreme speed and acceleration, the advantages offered by composite structure material classes become apparent due to the ship's tonnage, and hydrodynamic properties. Although there are some specific disadvantages in terms of initial production cost, service life and maintenance, the basic approach and the main demands that are tried not to be compromised in the TTHB project create a displacement range that can reach 700 or 800 tons in the steel hull. More precisely, finding the optimum point (cost/benefit) becomes a truly extreme challenge if you not compromise from speed.

Perhaps the TTHB could have been a bifurcated project from the beginning. Parallel or sequential production as two classes could have been considered. One is: high firepower approach, even with on sea-refillable scaled up Hydro-GIDS launcher (capable loitering ammunitions, and various types of mini ISTAR UAVs), a Gökdeniz CIWS on the aft deck, a scaled-down CENK radar suite and lots of USV consoles on bridge. While other is, abnormally speed centric with unmatched shoot-and-scoot capable missile boats on more composite material grades.

Heavy class attack boats in the 600/800 ton range with high endurance and well equipped for patrol missions. The other is missile boats with hulls under 50 meters and capable of cruising over 60 knots. And, thirdly, 20-25 meter unmanned missile boats designed to work entirely with these fast attack crafts, capable of carrying long-range missiles, including ATMACA. While platform diversity would lose some of the logistical advantages and perhaps increase overall costs, the tactical advantages and true versatility could be achieved in this way. When it comes to the main combatant fleet, i.e. giant frigates of 4-8 thousand tons, this may not be feasible, but the range of combatant ship classes we are discussing would not create a balance sheet that we could not handle.

 

[UkroTurk]

Long in short, So what i understand is Turkish Navy doesn't need Fast Attack Craft, The Navy needs multi purpose fast and light corvettes)

Give'm all multiple purpose ships



Look at the beauty which was eliminated

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

navyrecognition.com

Dear @Anmdt Was RMK's Design bad ?
The FMC 69 is fitted with 1x RHIB on the side and winch to lower it in the water

You could load Unmanned Surface Vessels into it.!

( Yanlarda USV veya Botlar için yerler bile varmış. Bu yeni dizaynda şimdi yok.)

Zamanında bu RMK dizayns pahalı demişler galiba şimdi istedikleri yine pahalı olacak. Hemde yeni dizayn şekilsiz. Koç düşmanlığı mı seziyorum?

 

[Anmdt]

Long in short, So what i understand is Turkish Navy doesn't need Fast Attack Craft, The Navy needs multi purpose fast and light corvettes)

View attachment 64044

Give'm all multiple purpose ships



Look at the beauty which was eliminated

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

IDEF 2015: RMK Marine Unveiled Some New Fast Attack Craft and Corvette Designs

navyrecognition.com

View attachment 64043

Dear @Anmdt Was RMK's Design bad ?
The FMC 69 is fitted with 1x RHIB on the side and winch to lower it in the water

You could load Unmanned Surface Vessels into it.!

( Yanlarda USV veya Botlar için yerler bile varmış. Bu yeni dizaynda şimdi yok.)

Zamanında bu RMK dizayns pahalı demişler galiba şimdi istedikleri yine pahalı olacak. Hemde yeni dizayn şekilsiz. Koç düşmanlığı mı seziyorum?

View attachment 64045
View attachment 64047
View attachment 64046

MPAC has RHIB spot for good eyes .

 

[UkroTurk]

EDIT:
@Yasar @Anmdt @dBSPL
@Kartal1

Tayfun Özberk

tayfunozberk.com

Author Tayfun Ozberk | Defense News

Tayfun Ozberk is a Turkey correspondent for Defense News.

www.defensenews.com

In this video, the former Navy Commander, Mr.Tayfun Özberk, expert talked about the 24-hour mission capacities of these ships. He said that the fuel tank and speed must be in a certain adjustment.

He said that having only a gas turbine engine was a disadvantage. Because gas turbines emit very high heat and detection becomes easier. They also consume too much fuel. According to him, the combination of 2 Diesel + 2 turbines is good.


In other words, this ship does not just quickly hit a predetermined naval target and quickly retreat. Hunting mission here could take time.
FAC arrives at its mission's zone rapidly but the enemy ship may be hiding behind an island. TTHB needs to search after him. These are a time-dependent process that includes other risk factors.
Also, the 76mm gun alone is not enough. He said the big gun and missiles were limited in close combat. He said it would be good to have another 30-40 mm gun at the back.


I wonder if UMTAS would eliminate this deficiency? UMTAS would also be useful against USVs. Also, the commander said that instead of 8 ATMACA, a combination of 4 ATMACA and 4 CAKIR would be better.


He underlined that AESA radar is essential and situational awareness is very important for TTHB. In my opinion, there should also be 4 fixed AESA radars.

He said: It is also good to have unmanned drones. Because we couldn't know in advance that if there is an enemy ship hiding behind the island. Therefore, according to the expert, an unmanned drone should carry out reconnaissance in advance.

Perhaps even a surprise attack from behind could be made with an unmanned surface vehicle.




Another issue I emphasize is that the biggest threat to TTHBs is underwater submarines. Does TTHB have anti submarine defense capability?


In short, this TTHB is not just about protecting our coasts, they also have the task of filling the time gap until the Frigates arrive.


He said these ships cannot go slow, they must be rapid. He said that going slow is boring for the the officers of this ship and it's like a torture for them


What i understand is Chasing warships throughout the Aegean, that is, in the sea of islands, is not a job that can be done in a short time.
Dear @Anmdt. Are there any mistakes with the my translation and conclusions ?

Ben sevmeye başladım bu dizayn gemiyi.

 

[Test7]

 

[Afif]

She is sooo gorgeous! Can I marry her?

 

[Nutuk]

I like the MPAC, the only missin IMO is 4 standing VLS tubes between the front section and ASM launchers.

Start with 4 Sapan missiles and when quad pack becomes available upgrade it to 16 missiles MRAD. Yeme de yanina yat!

 

[Anmdt]

I like the MPAC, the only missin IMO is 4 standing VLS tubes between the front section and ASM launchers.

Start with 4 Sapan missiles and when quad pack becomes available upgrade it to 16 missiles MRAD. Yeme de yanina yat!

The current design offers little challenge to either MPAC or TTAB. The main engine and auxiliary rooms are cramped as a result of speed and IR signature requirements, exhaust planning and the need for redundant auxiliaries that can supply state-of-the-art sensors (four of the gen-sets). Conventional or current MIDLAS would require a hull extension (so naturally lower speeds can be achieved), while cold start and next generation short VLSs may enable these designs to be upgraded with at least 4 cells. Cold launch is a necessity, and an ExLS-like architecture would make placement and maintenance easy. This requires our companies to step out of their comfort zones.

Not sure if many have noticed, TTAB has a wider space between the bridge and AShM bay and a shorter supper structure after the bay, unlike MPAC.

 

[Nutuk]

I was not talking about placing a MIDLAS but 4 standing tubes like we have seen on some concepts with Milgem.

This would give FACs like MPAC a good MRAD airdefense

 

[Anmdt]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1740786380094239071

Behcet Karataş is appointed as the manager of ASFAT.

This is one of the better pieces of news I have heard recently, as the previous manager was (pretty much) incompetent.

Behcet Karatas has a long history in Aselsan and was director of Naval systems.

Frankly, I haven't heard anything about Unirobotic's stabilised turret, while the first ship of the ADKG programme is still undergoing systems integration. Probably it has not been delivered to the shipyard yet, nor has it passed the stabilised tests (as proof of concept).

Now that Aselsan is taking over ASFAT, could it be the time to say goodbye to Canik-Unirobotic (and some other suppliers rose momentarily), which has
orders for 20 units out of the blue, without a prototype?

 

[Anmdt]

I was not talking about placing a MIDLAS but 4 standing tubes like we have seen on some concepts with Milgem.

This would give FACs like MPAC a good MRAD airdefense

I doubt if it can be quad-packed into that tube, but even 6 Hisar-D Blk IIs would be enough on such an agile platform with an X-band radar capable of 100-120 km range.

I would even be content with 6 of Gökdoğan YH-VL.

 

[Heartbang]

I doubt if it can be quad-packed into that tube, but even 6 Hisar-D Blk IIs would be enough on such an agile platform with an X-band radar capable of 100-120 km range.

I would even be content with 6 of Gökdoğan YH-VL.

A system like this would do wonders for FAC's, as well as the Ada class refit.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

In 2024, Construction of Milden test block is expected to start (as it was stated by officials as well) and Milden will have VLS capability

 

[Anmdt]

In 2024, Construction of Milden test block is expected to start (as it was stated by officials as well) and Milden will have VLS capability

View attachment 64427

We've had one, yes. What about second VLS?