TR Navy Naval Programs

[Sanchez]

AFAIK Tomahawk missile can be launched from 53 cm tubes. Is that not enough range?

Huh, seems i was wrong.

 

[Anmdt]

Let them, we've seen how this played out in US, a disaster. Navy must have the capabilities to maintain its own high value vessels. Smaller ships like coast guard corvettes, OPVs etc can be argued upon, but anything bigger than a frigate should be left to the navy.


To move the point, Reis Class like any other submarine we currently operate only have 533mm torpedo tubes. 533mm is a tad small for long range cruise missiles. AFAIK, there are no cruise missiles launched from 533mm tubes in any NATO country. Israel handled this with 4 additional purpose built 650mm tubes next to the 6 533mm tubes and is theorized to use them for the nuclear capable Popeye Turbo missiles. But it is also claimed that even Israel is moving to VLS equipped boats with the last Dolphin 2 Class Drakon, which have a much larger sail.

A Gezgin that is fit to made into 533mm tubes would have to be smaller in diameter and there already are length limits. It basically would have to be a lesser performance munition. I would go as far to claim that a Gezgin designed to fit into a 533mm tube would be drastically different in size and performance next to a VLS one, you can basically call them two different missiles. You can even the first one "Gezgin 0.50"

MdCN fits to the 533mm torpedo tube as far as i know, and Tomahawk also fits within a 533mm tube, but not the torpedo tube itself. A vertically packed tube that can be replenished at shore, not through hatches within the submarine.

There are two matters from the perspective i see it;

- Since we are fitting a long range cruise missile, entire of 533mm needs to be utilized and this gets a capsule discarded. Without a capsule now our missile has to endure all hydrodynamics and launching loads, and transition from water to air with ease and deploy the fins/canards and do this all safely with a well controlled CoG and forces.

- Length of missile, lack of shrouds for installing, on board equipment may indicate that a Gezgin may not be loaded into a torpedo tube from within the submarine and has to be reloaded at shore, therefore if the submarine is destined for such a role at least few tubes will be occupied by Gezgin, pre-loaded. Either torpedo tube gets taller to accomodate the missile or the missile / booster gets shorter. Recently we have heard that Gür class submarine's torpedo tube has lengtheneded to accomodate Akya torpedo, but i believe this wasn't the sole reason.

- A forgotten point: Also design of the missile, shroud may affect the swim out methodology, whether it will swim out by its own propulsion or pushed by pneumatic systems or a mechanical system. Setting a safe distance to turn on the rocket booster to emerge from water etc. Without a capsule these all becomes a challenge.

Atmaca is fitted into a torpedo tube through a capsule. Imo this is a necessity in 21st century to provide a decent swim-out distance and flexibility in engagement. This is not necessary when your missile can reach 1000 km+ distances.

So a torpedo tube and vertical tube launched versions may share similarities but at least the booster design length and/or missile length may need to be varied. Or its canards and nose will be different from the air / surface launched versions to operate both in submerged swim speed and in flight speed.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Are the Germans the only one capabaly of delivering AIP refulling station solutions ?

NO!!

After TKMN paid a punishment of 100 million Euros to Turkey, the Germans insisted that the Turkish submarines must be refueled in Germany. But they didn't get through.

The Turkish submarines can get maintenance in Turkey but Greek submarines have to go to Germany.

AIP is a very valuable commodity in the submarine. You have to use this technology very sparingly. That's why AIP is primarily intended for creeping speed. Charging takes a very, very long time. Each additional knot reduces the underwater duration of the oversized. It also depends on the discipline of the crew. The Japanese have done 30 days underwater with their first SORYU's. For the Germans 16 days, for Italians 13 days, for the Greeks 11 days. The Japanese may have broken the record with their new SORYU's. Quite possibly. I am curious how long you Turkish submariners could stay under water.

 

[Anmdt]

Huh, seems i was wrong.

It is a vertical tube, we don't count it as a torpedo tube but MdCN does launch from a torpedo tube.

 

[Afif]

@Anmdt i think British Astute can Launch tomahawk through its 533mm torpedo tubes.

 

[Sanchez]

It is a vertical tube, we don't count it as a torpedo tube but MdCN does launch from a torpedo tube.

Seawolves don't have the VLS but I believe could launch TLAMs from the torpedo tubes.

 

[Afif]

Seawolves don't have the VLS but I believe could launch TLAMs from the torpedo tubes.

Seawolf has unique 660mm tubes afaik. That's why I mentioned Astute.

 

[OPTIMUS]

In my opinion, AIP technology with fuel cells is the wrong way for submarines, although it has been used in several countries. The future is lithium-ion operation.

1) Very long underwater operation,
2) very direct response to the command,
3) very high underwater speed,
4) very short charging time,
5) low maintenance,
6) Known and more controllable technology,
7) Ease of construction and
8) Placement in submarine bodies.


Fuel cell operation is exactly the opposite of these.

The Japanese have realized this and equipped their last three SORYU class submarines and new Taygay class submarines with Li-Ion technology.

 

[TheInsider]

Tomahawks can be launched from 533mm torpedo tubes. Tomahawks can also be launched from VLS.

 

[Chocopie]

Korean SLCMs are all launched through 533 mm torpedo tubes.
From KSS-II (Korean Type 214 version) and heavier KSS-III as well (VLS reserved for SLBMs).

Hyunmoo 3C long-range CM (2012)
533 mm diameter submarine (600 mm ship/land launched)
6.2 m length
1,360 kg launch mass
max. 1.2 mach speed
1,500 km range
450 kg warhead
< 2 m CEP

Test video at 0:20 min. you can see the air-pressure launched orange capsule piercing the sea surface, opening of top cap and igniting turbojet engine from a KSS-II Son Won-Il class sub.

 

[TheInsider]

In my opinion, AIP technology with fuel cells is the wrong way for submarines, although it has been used in several countries. The future is lithium-ion operation.

1) Very long underwater operation,
2) very direct response to the command,
3) very high underwater speed,
4) very short charging time,
5) low maintenance,
6) Known and more controllable technology,
7) Ease of construction and
8) Placement in submarine bodies.


Fuel cell operation is exactly the opposite of these.

The Japanese have realized this and equipped their last three SORYU class submarines and new Taygay class submarines with Li-Ion technology.

Koreans also chose li-ion(KSS-III Batch II). We should go that way. We can use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (200Wh/kg) that are safe for underwater use. If we want to be super extra safe we can go for Lithium Titanate (180Wh/kg). Medical tools have Lithium Titanate batteries because they satisfy the safety requirements of medical tools. We should replace all lead-acid batteries immediately. It is not a difficult process to replace existing batteries.

 

[Chocopie]

Koreans also chose li-ion. We should go that way. We can use Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (200Wh/kg) that are safe for underwater use. If we want to be super extra safe we can go for Lithium Titanate (180Wh/kg). Medical tools have Lithium Titanate batteries because they satisfy the safety requirements of medical tools. We should replace all lead-acid batteries immediately. It is not a difficult process to replace existing batteries.

Koreans have chosen diesel engine + fuel cell AIP + Li-Ion for now (KSS-III Batch II).

They don‘t believe in Li-Ion solely like the Japanese who deployed outdated Stirling AIP instead of fuel cell AIP for their first batch of Soryu class subs.

For later Soryu and Taigei class subs they didn‘t want to invest heavily in fuel cell AIP technology …

 

[TheInsider]

Koreans have chosen diesel-electric + fuel cell AIP + Li-Ion for now ( KSS-III Batch II).

They don‘t believe in Li-Ion solely like the Japanese who deployed outdated Stirling AIP instead of fuel cell AIP for their first batch of Soryu class subs.

For later Soryu and Taigei class subs they didn‘t want to invest heavily in fuel cell AIP technology …

IMHO, AIP is unnecessary for mid-sized submarines like the Reis class. It is not worth the cost or the risks involved. Li-Ion batteries will provide enough underwater endurance. For heavier subs with VLS capability, the AIP system might be a good addition.

 

[OPTIMUS]

Koreans have chosen diesel engine + fuel cell AIP + Li-Ion for now ( KSS-III Batch II).

They don‘t believe in Li-Ion solely like the Japanese who deployed outdated Stirling AIP instead of fuel cell AIP for their first batch of Soryu class subs.

For later Soryu and Taigei class subs they didn‘t want to invest heavily in fuel cell AIP technology …

The first SORYU class boat with Stirling engine (SS 501-Soryu) cost $510 million.
11. SORYU class boat with Li-ion propulsion (SS 511- Oryu) cost $601.3 million.

 

[OPTIMUS]

but what is funny about the matter; the Turkish Navy will know immediately when a Greek AIP submarine is on its way to Germany for refueling. And his absence in the Mediterranean will last a very long time.

 

[Chocopie]

Submarine builders like Germany‘s TKMS (Type 212 CD/214/218 SG) believe in fuel cell AIP coupled with Li-Ion batteries as future propulsion. Therefore also Norway, Italy, Singapore as customers.

Koreans (Hanwha Ocean, HHI) with their German sub tech roots and indigenious PEM fuel cell technology do as well couple AIP + Li-Ion.

Spanish Navantia will deploy bioethanol AIP on their S-80 subs.

French Naval Group (problem-ridden MESMA AIP) and Japanese MHI & KHI (outdated Stirling AIP) are betting on Li-Ion out of sheer necessity in my opinion.

PS: Chinese Type 39A diesel-electric subs use AIP as well. Not much is known about integration of Li-Ion packs but their commercial batteries tend to go up in flames easily

 

[mohammadtd]

NO!!

After TKMN paid a punishment of 100 million Euros to Turkey, the Germans insisted that the Turkish submarines must be refueled in Germany. But they didn't get through.

The Turkish submarines can get maintenance in Turkey but Greek submarines have to go to Germany.

AIP is a very valuable commodity in the submarine. You have to use this technology very sparingly. That's why AIP is primarily intended for creeping speed. Charging takes a very, very long time. Each additional knot reduces the underwater duration of the oversized. It also depends on the discipline of the crew. The Japanese have done 30 days underwater with their first SORYU's. For the Germans 16 days, for Italians 13 days, for the Greeks 11 days. The Japanese may have broken the record with their new SORYU's. Quite possibly. I am curious how long you Turkish submariners could stay under water.

How difficult to develop AIP technology for Milden?

 

[Anmdt]

Seawolves don't have the VLS but I believe could launch TLAMs from the torpedo tubes.

Now i am trying to figure out if there are two sub launched tomahawks. I recall one that is installed via a capsule allowing vertical swim out, does another one have a capsule container as well? This would be challenging if so, maybe a separate capsule to allow swim-out? Appearantly i found out early versions are torpedo tube launched as well.

 

[TheInsider]

Sub-Atmaca training capsule prototype.

Roketsan smart capsule concept

The smart capsule will have its own propulsion, battery, mission computer, INS, and cruise system. The capsule will carry the missile to a predetermined launch spot the missile will be launched from that spot.

Advantages
-Protection of submarine stealth (it can be launched from deep underwater like a torpedo and can travel a considerable distance away from the submarine)
-Optimal use of operation area
-Sudden attack capability and limited reaction time
-Underwater/surface orbit/concept optimization

Tomahawk TLAM Block IV launch from HMS Astute

 

[Kaan Azman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1827424896944894067

It looks like a test is on the horizon because the capsule looks pretty serious, I think we will have like six ATMACA variants in total.