TR Naval Programs

[AzeriTank]

Probably entire self -defense system was turned off, even radar may be on stand by thus and unattended (according the investigation the officer disabled system and left his station)
It is ordinary for systems to remain on stand by or remain in power saving mode to save power.
Automation is important for this case, for system to detect a possible target and increase power supply by sending a command to gensets, activating ciws and ready to engage in 1-2 seconds.
With manual systems it takes 10-15 seconds at best case if all officers-engineers at their station.
And probably nowadays consoles are not split, rather merged and another officer can foresee and approval for engagement if the responsible one has missed it.
In most of the failed cases the phalanx was in stand by -disabled mode so it wasn't responsible for what happened.

im shocked that how easily you are satisfied with this news... let me remind you that it didnt happen during the peace time, it happened during the war and that ship was sent there to protect the water... also, they could share any picture after taking off systems.. as we all know that otherwise it will be a huge blow for their future sales..

 

[AzeriTank]

Because they dont have any other ciws at the moment?
Because they are highly influnced by US Navy? Note that they use RAM on some ships, not Phalanx.

Tell my why japanese changed to seaRAM,
Or Germany switched to RAM? instead of Phalanx
Or how about Italy and strales?

Phalanx is not the god of the ciws, it is not the best, not the superior of all other ciws.
It can be compared with similar calibers and similar ciws employing similar techniques. Not with all.

phalanx able to shoot only 2km away, with supersonic missiles like brahmos it means only 2 seconds to shoot it down. by having that little time
1) Phalanx will not be able to stop 2 missiles coming at the same time..
2) it will have too little time to react
3) even if it shoots it at the last moment, its kinetic energy could hit and damage the ship... also super bad accuracy against drones... especially swarm drone attacks..

 

[Reviewbrah]

Will Atmaca be launched from MDAS? THX forward.

No.

Its comes down to cost and practicality.

Much more infrastructure required to use it in a VLS form. Different booster etc. It would also limit VLS space and the number of AShM's ship can carry. It would take longer to replace. All the additional cost to launch it from VLS is not worth it.

Also launching canisters already have low signature and on the top of that, in modern ships it is integrated with design.

Kuzgun will use a G40 booster in order to be launched from VLS. It could be also used for ASuW roles. Especially against fast attack craft taking cover behind terrain. It could maybe even damage a large ship enough to go back to port for repairs.

 

[corsair255]

Looks like there is Mar-D on top of radar mast?

Rumors say that the new type LST, TCG Bayraktar to receive Aselsan MAR-D Radar.

Sometimes a rumor is just a rumor...and sometimes not...

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

We need a new type of ship which is purpose built for carrying the ULAQ and unmanned submarines. But I'll get back to that in a bit....

I'm very eager to see the first footage of the ULAQ being tested. Out of all our naval programs it is the most important, despite appearing insignificant next to our large vessel projects.

Along with the ULAQ, an unmanned submarine program is vital. I remember seeing it being mentioned, but my bet is it'll be kept secret for a while.

Imagine a fleet of unmanned submarines and surface vessels, armed with anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and electronic warfare systems. These will pose a serious risk to any conventional naval fleet.

Let's not forget that a single torpedo can sink any large naval vessel, possibly even an aircraft carrier. Anti-ship missiles are generally not as potent. So arming our unmanned fleet with torpedoes is essential.

The obvious problem with the unmanned vessels is range. From what I remember the ULAQ has a range of 400km. This is okay for the Aegean, but if we were to confront a navy somewhere deep in the Mediterranean or in the open oceans, we would need a ship which is purpose built for carrying and commanding these vessels. Yes I'm sure our LHD, LSTs and even our frigates can deploy them. However, obviously the number of unmanned vessels they could carry and deploy effectively would be small.

A purpose built "mothership" is something we should consider. For engagements far away from our shores, they could prove to be a game changer. If we want to be able to project power far, far away from the Blue Homeland, dozens of unmanned combat vessels mounted to motherships, escorted by our conventional fleet is the cheapest and quickest way to do so until we have a fully operational carrier.

I simply cannot wait to see the ULAQ and its submersible counterpart. Think of them as a swarm of angry bees which you can't fight. Imagine them being deployed further ahead, as the conventional fleet sits behind with Gezgin missiles...

 

[Anmdt]

We need a new type of ship which is purpose built for carrying the ULAQ and unmanned submarines. But I'll get back to that in a bit....

I'm very eager to see the first footage of the ULAQ being tested. Out of all our naval programs it is the most important, despite appearing insignificant next to our large vessel projects.

Along with the ULAQ, an unmanned submarine program is vital. I remember seeing it being mentioned, but my bet is it'll be kept secret for a while.

Imagine a fleet of unmanned submarines and surface vessels, armed with anti-ship missiles, torpedoes and electronic warfare systems. These will pose a serious risk to any conventional naval fleet.

Let's not forget that a single torpedo can sink any large naval vessel, possibly even an aircraft carrier. Anti-ship missiles are generally not as potent. So arming our unmanned fleet with torpedoes is essential.

The obvious problem with the unmanned vessels is range. From what I remember the ULAQ has a range of 400km. This is okay for the Aegean, but if we were to confront a navy somewhere deep in the Mediterranean or in the open oceans, we would need a ship which is purpose built for carrying and commanding these vessels. Yes I'm sure our LHD, LSTs and even our frigates can deploy them. However, obviously the number of unmanned vessels they could carry and deploy effectively would be small.

A purpose built "mothership" is something we should consider. For engagements far away from our shores, they could prove to be a game changer. If we want to be able to project power far, far away from the Blue Homeland, dozens of unmanned combat vessels mounted to motherships, escorted by our conventional fleet is the cheapest and quickest way to do so until we have a fully operational carrier.

I simply cannot wait to see the ULAQ and its submersible counterpart. Think of them as a swarm of angry bees which you can't fight. Imagine them being deployed further ahead, as the conventional fleet sits behind with Gezgin missiles...

Ada class and I class actually can carry 4 of these. 2 in stern bay -launched from stern ramp, 2 in RHIB bays. However these would be the smallest variant (10-13 meters).
For larger variants, an LPD-like ship will be needed with a dock. Considering height of a typical dock and size of LCTs which fit, 2 of large USVs can fit in.
Another concern is storage of missiles/torpedos to be installed on these platforms, or securing those while the USVs are stored in the ship. Again LPD is a better candidate for these purposes having more space to allocated a munition storage room and required personnel.

The stern bay of frigates also can be used to launch and retrieve UUV/ROV, if modified accordingly.

 

[what]

Take an old container ship, modify it, make it look civilian, launch multiple ULAQs and surprise the hell out of the enemy.

 

[Anthony]

Take an old container ship, modify it, make it look civilian, launch multiple ULAQs and surprise the hell out of the enemy.

And then all civilian ships in the area will become legitimate targets.

 

[BordoEnes]

Take an old container ship, modify it, make it look civilian, launch multiple ULAQs and surprise the hell out of the enemy.

Pretty sure that violates a couple laws of the Geneva convention lol

 

[adenl]

According to @SavunmaSanayiST.com the TCG Istanbul will use the HAZAR AESA radar.

TCG İSTANBUL’a ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı | SavunmaSanayiST

İSTİF Sınıfı Fırkateynlerin ilki olan TCG İSTANBUL (F-515) ile birlikte AESA mimarisine sahip ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri envanterine alınacaktır

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[Oublious]

According to @SavunmaSanayiST.com the TCG Istanbul will use the HAZAS AESA radar.

TCG İSTANBUL’a ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı | SavunmaSanayiST

İSTİF Sınıfı Fırkateynlerin ilki olan TCG İSTANBUL (F-515) ile birlikte AESA mimarisine sahip ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri envanterine alınacaktır

www.savunmasanayist.com

correct....

 

[AzeriTank]

According to @SavunmaSanayiST.com the TCG Istanbul will use the HAZAR AESA radar.

TCG İSTANBUL’a ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı | SavunmaSanayiST

İSTİF Sınıfı Fırkateynlerin ilki olan TCG İSTANBUL (F-515) ile birlikte AESA mimarisine sahip ASELSAN HAZAR Radarı Türk Deniz Kuvvetleri envanterine alınacaktır

www.savunmasanayist.com

its a known fact already..

 

[Bilal Khan(Quwa)]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1350713032394076169

It seems Pakistan wants to join Milden, not STM1700 design. Pakistan as the main costumer of Turkish big scale military products, This request is not a surprise for anybody. I belive they will be the first costumer of Tf2000 in mid term as well. Turkish and Pakistani naval forces will expand the cooperation with these programs.

I don't think Turkey will expose its own service projects (MILDEN, TF2000, ADA, TFX, etc) to Pakistan.

Instead, we're seeing Turkey assist Pakistan with new or original designs using some lessons / work from Turkey's in-house projects.

1. Instead of ADA, Turkey tailor-made the PN MILGEM Corvette (with VLS)

2. Instead of TF-2000, Turkey's helping Pakistan with the Jinnah-Class Frigate.

3. Instead of MILDEN, Turkey may help with a next-gen PN submarine.

The Pakistani programs will be unique to Pakistan, but they'll also be different from Turkey's core programs. It's almost as if Turkey said, "look, we can't sell you our sensitive stuff, but we'll help you make your own sensitive stuff."

That's why I don't think the PN MILGEM Corvette, Jinnah-Class Frigate, or even the Next Gen PN Submarine will be for sale to anyone except Pakistan.

 

[Reviewbrah]

Shipbuilding and Machinery Engineer Kozan S. Erkan

• We wouldn't expecting Gökdeniz CIWS to be integrated early, it looks like its either developed enough or is going to be developed. We will see its performance at the same time with the ship. Turkish Navy has a extensive anti-ship missile research/simulations program.
• Biggest surprise was integration of MDAS, when looking at early photos it has similar specifications to MK41. This does not mean it is a copy. European Sylver also have similar specifications as it can use MK41 missiles. It is a very strategic system.
• Navy most likely would not want Hisar O (IIR) and want Hisar RF.
• MAM-L reached 15km, patrol boat, fast attack, corvette such as Ada-class can't defend itself from this threat. Majority of the ships of the worlds navies including in Turkey's neighborhood don't have capability to defend against threat such as this. Other than Greece's frigates, none of their ships have capability to defend from MAM-L. MAM-L can't sink the ship of course but it can render it sensors useless.
• ESSM sales does not require authorization from senate as it is considered defense weapon. What they do is to delayed missile deliveries, factory order as seen with other purchases.
• When Sea Sparrow missiles bought from US, missiles are sent to UK and bundled together as quadpack in UK. Then given to buyers.
• New bow design of I-Class is much more wave piercing
• Mast is much more as different as it will accommodate Aselsan AESA radar. Aselsan radar will be similar to rotating like SMART-S. As it is not a passive radar, it will send a vast amount of energy. Some criticize that why there is no fixed AESA radars. I find these criticism as unfair as it is very expensive, you can have lots of problems using fixed AESA (such as it uses same frequency for radar light).
• 90% of SMART-S is produced under license in Turkey. Extensive upgrades done to SMART-S throughout the years. Important upgrades such as ECM developed by Aselsan for SMART-S.
• Range of Aselsan AESA radar will most likely be similar to SMART-S (around 250km). Electronic warfare capabilities of the radar will be much much better.
• SMART-S Mk2 is a very capable radar, when Europeans choose what systems to use, they take Russian systems for account. Russians electronic warfare capabilities are not capable enough to blind SMART-S especially after upgrades. Turkey has to develop its own modern alternative systems.
• Nationalization percentage of the ships did not just increase, it increased strategically.
• When looked at Navy ships, Greece built patrol boats, fast attack craft, Meko frigates, air-independent submarine. But Greece did not learning anything from building these ships. They just did welding and assembly. While Turkey built Ada-class and improving ship building capabilities with every ship. Turkey has ability to integrate majority of the weapons it wants to its ships with domestic capabilities. Akya torpedo is an important example.
• TCG İzmit compared to TCG İstanbul, the last ship of I-Class will have higher nationalization rate.
• Most extreme change in I-class, I can think of would be change in propulsion system due to possible embargoes.
• Answer to why TF-2000 design phase didn't advance is simple. We don't know what weapons to put. Do you know how long will be the long range air defense missile is? No. Do you know its weight? No. Do you know the performance of the missile(s)? No. How do you design a ship without this info.
• Ada-class can be upgraded with VLS. Original concept design of Ada-class included VLS. For many rightful reasons it was decided not to include one. Even if it only had 4 Hisar missiles, it would be serious force multiplier.
• Ada-class is one of the most efficient ship to use LM2500. While other ships using 2 turbines, 2 engines. Ada-class is able to reach same performance with 1 gas turbine, 2 engines.
• Ukrainian engines are 2-3 times heavier than LM2500 and less efficient. Ukrainian engine tech is older similar to engines used in Gabya-class. LM2500 works similar to aircraft engines while Ukrainian engines work similar to power plant. We can use Ukrainian engines if we pushed enough but it would have to go through upgrades. Ships design would have to change. Also if Germans give the transmissions for Ukrainians engines, warranty like they give to LM2500 is a question. Rolls Royce engines is an alternative for LM2500 but is much more expensive.

 

[adenl]

Shipbuilding and Machinery Engineer Kozan S. Erkan

• We wouldn't expecting Gökdeniz CIWS to be integrated early, it looks like its either developed enough or is going to be developed. We will see its performance at the same time with the ship. Turkish Navy has a extensive anti-ship missile research/simulations program.
• Biggest surprise was integration of MDAS, when looking at early photos it has similar specifications to MK41. This does not mean it is a copy. European Sylver also have similar specifications as it can use MK41 missiles. It is a very strategic system.
• Navy most likely would not want Hisar O (IIR) and want Hisar RF.
• MAM-L reached 15km, patrol boat, fast attack, corvette such as Ada-class can't defend itself from this threat. Majority of the ships of the worlds navies including in Turkey's neighborhood don't have capability to defend against threat such as this. Other than Greece's frigates, none of their ships have capability to defend from MAM-L. MAM-L can't sink the ship of course but it can render it sensors useless.
• ESSM sales does not require authorization from senate as it is considered defense weapon. What they do is to delayed missile deliveries, factory order as seen with other purchases.
• When Sea Sparrow missiles bought from US, missiles are sent to UK and bundled together as quadpack in UK. Then given to other buyers.
• New bow design of I-Class is much more wave piercing
• Mast is much more as different as it will accommodate Aselsan AESA radar. Aselsan radar will be similar to rotating like SMART-S. As it is not a passive radar, it will send a vast amount of energy. Some criticize that why there is no fixed AESA radars. I find these criticism as unfair as it is very expensive, you can have lots of problems using fixed AESA (such as it uses same frequency for radar light).
• 90% of SMART-S is produced under license in Turkey. Extensive upgrades done to SMART-S throughout the years. Important upgrades such as ECM developed by Aselsan for SMART-S.
• Range of Aselsan AESA radar will most likely be similar to SMART-S (around 250km). Electronic warfare capabilities of the radar will be much much better.
• SMART-S Mk2 is a very capable radar, when Europeans choose what systems to use, they take Russian systems for account. Russians electronic warfare capabilities are not capable enough to blind SMART-S especially after upgrades. Turkey has to develop its own modern alternative systems.
• Nationalization percentage of the ships did not just increase, it increased strategically.
• When looked at Navy ships, Greece built patrol boats, fast attack craft, Meko frigates, air-independent submarine. But Greece did not learning anything from building these ships. They just did welding and assembly. While Turkey built Ada-class and improving ship building capabilities with every ship. Turkey has ability to integrate majority of the weapons it wants to its ships with domestic capabilities. Akya torpedo is an important example.
• TCG İzmit compared to TCG İstanbul, the last ship of I-Class will have higher nationalization rate.
• Most extreme change in I-class, I can think of would be change in propulsion system due to possible embargoes.
• Answer to why TF-2000 design phase didn't advance is simple. We don't know what weapons to put. Do you know how long will be the long range air defense missile is? No. Do you know its weight? No. Do you know the performance of the missile(s)? No. How do you design a ship without this info.
• Ada-class can be upgraded with VLS. Original concept design of Ada-class included VLS. For many rightful reasons it was decided not to include one. Even if it only had 4 Hisar missiles, it would be serious force multiplier.
• Ada-class is one of the most efficient ship to use LM2500. While other ships using 2 turbines, 2 engines. Ada-class is able to reach same performance with 1 gas turbine, 2 engines.
• Ukrainian engines are 2-3 times heavier than LM2500 and less efficient. Ukrainian engine tech is older similar to engines used in Gabya-class. LM2500 works similar to aircraft engines while Ukrainian engines work similar to power plant. We can use Ukrainian engines if we pushed enough but it would have to go through upgrades. Ships design would have to change. Also if Germans give the transmissions for Ukrainians engines, warranty like they give to LM2500 is a question. Rolls Royce engines is an alternative for LM2500 but is much more expensive.

Thanks mate. But who is this mr. Erkan? He seems to know a lot of details for a simple engineer.

 

[Reviewbrah]

Thanks mate. But who is this mr. Erkan? He seems to know a lot of details for a simple engineer.

He has a degree in Shipbuilding and Ocean engineering from Istanbul Technical University. He mentions working on ship projects in the podcasts. Also he does defense research in his free time I believe

 

[Blank1]

This infographic is from 2017, any updates will be good.

 

[Reviewbrah]

View attachment 13281

This infographic is from 2017, any updates will be good.

Feasibility report dates to 2015. First workshop was at 2017. Milden project officially started 2019. Design phase will finalize by 2023. No info on specs.

 

[Reviewbrah]

When are we going to replace Burak-class light corvette? I know, not anytime soon but still.

Around 1600 tons

76mm Gun
8-cell MDAS (G40, Hisar RF)
8x Atmaca
1x Korkut CIWS
2x 25mm Aselsan STOP
Ship-based UMTAS, Kargı Family Loitering Munition etc.
2x Orka Light Torpedo
1x Roketsan DSH
MAR-D
AKR-D Blok-A2
TS1400 based gas turbine(s)

would be nice
Majority of the systems on the list is already under production

 

[adenl]

When are we going to replace Burak-class light corvette? I know, not anytime soon but still.

Around 1600 tons

76mm Gun
8-cell MDAS (G40, Hisar RF)
8x Atmaca
1x Korkut CIWS
2x 25mm Aselsan STOP
Ship-based UMTAS, Kargı Family Loitering Munition etc.
2x Orka Light Torpedo
1x Roketsan DSH
MAR-D
AKR-D Blok-A2
TS1400 based gas turbine(s)

would be nice
Majority of the systems on the list is already under production

Nice setup but such a ship would require a larger radar than the MAR-D, perhaps HAZAR radar? STM FAC-55 is planned to be equipped with a SMART-S/HAZAR (sized) radar.