TR Propulsion Systems

[Ripley]

https://x.com/gdhdefence/status/1731602868413579272?s=46&t=DEy7rapS0QQE2YE7LHul5g

so according to tweet domestic helicopter engine will enter serial production next year. But I find the test oføn 4,5 h too little. Doesn’t anyone know why he is saying those hours ?

That 4.5 hrs of test, could he meant to say 4.5 hr nonstop flight test

 

[TheInsider]

That 15k-ton hydraulic press is for forging turbine disks. Bulkhead will be produced by 3D printer and production rate is not a problem TAI won't be producing thousands of Kaans in a year.

 

[Aqerdf]

That 4.5 hrs of test, could he meant to say 4.5 hr nonstop flight test

Yep. Mr. Akşit says something like ''normally, these helicopter engines running 2 to 2.5 hours in their missions. We flew it 4.5 hours in one of our test flights.

Edit: Not in flight i think, Mr. Akşit says ''in tests''. I was misinterpreted, sorry.

 

[Baryshx]

Mr Akşit: "We are trying to persuade SSB support to establish a company with our industrialists for hydraulic forging operations of Titanium and Nickel super alloys with a capacity of 15,000+ tons press. SSB said they will support"

I said this 10 years ago. We need at least 35 tons of presses to build aircraft bulkheads. In fact, 50000 would be even better.

 

[Baryshx]

Btw, Tf35K consortium seems to have officially grown.

According to Mete Yarar quoting/confirming what he says by quoting the interview of journalists (Mr.Mustafa Kartoğlu) with President Mr Erdoğan on airliner. He said that RR has joined Tf35K team and actively participated in the design phase.

Turkiye Gazetesi has also announced in similar dates that RR and KALE (TAEC) has joined the Tf35K program. According to news, Serial production will be done by TEI but Alp aviation, Trmotor and Kale will also join the serial production. TAEC will only have responsibility for design and certification.

According to this news, Design and development team will be shaped as follow;

Design:

• Trmotor (Main contractor)
• IvP
• TEI
• RR
• Kale

Serial production

• TEI (Main contractor)
• Trmotor
• Kale
• Alp Aviation

Currently, 650 engineers are working on design projects. This number will probably now approach 1000s. With joining of RR, it will probably be worked as a consortium similar to Eurojet but IP rights of each piece to be designed will belong to Turkiye. Under leadership of Trmotor, The engine will be divided into certain sections according to difficulty levels and there will be certain sections that each company is responsible for designing I guess. Different qualification and test procedures will be carried out for each section and final assembled and completed engine will eventually "Power our Freedom"

In the meantime this news is too wonderful and happy, so I find it hard to believe. Is there an official statement? Forget Mete Yarar.

 

[Yasar_TR]

There may be those of you that would say; why do we need presses for single crystals?
When nickel super alloys are drawn and directionally solidified to form single crystals, they also form pores that are up to a hundred microns in length inside the crystalline structure. The pores that are near the surface are the culprits for single crystals‘ failures due to creep degradation . These are faults that need to be ironed out. Hot Isostatic Presses (HIP) are used to iron out these faults and eliminate the pores.
During directional solidification, the crystals are drawn at a specific rate and temperature gradient. This method needs to be monitored carefully to decrease the pore formation as the crystal grows in a dendritic manner (like the branches of a tree) it tends to create pores.
HIP process is applied at temperatures close to the limit of the solid state of a crystal. If not managed properly the crystal may turn in to liquid and restart solidification, hence giving rise to more pore creation. So it has to be done very carefully without rushing it and remembering that as well as the crystals, the operational time of the HIP is expensive too.

 

[Rodeo]

View attachment 63553

@Rodeo , exactly at this time stamp (1.08.08) he says this picture is a month or two old. It is in much further stage now, close to soon being fired up. So this is old news.

He says it a minute after that. I timestamped the video(At 1:09:30)

The quote: "Sadece uçak motoru kaldı. Onu da birkaç aya çalıştıracağız. İnşallah sizde duyarsınız"(Only the airplane engine left. We will start it in a few months. I hope you will hear it too.)

It appears that the meeting took place a few days ago.

TEI Denizli Sanayisi Tedarikçi Buluşmaları Toplantısı Denizli Sanayi Odası'nda Gerçekleşti

''Gücün Kaynağı Denizli Sanayisi ile Buluşuyor'' TUSAŞ Motor Sanayi (TEI) İle Denizli Sanayisi Tedarikçi Buluşmaları Toplantısı Denizli Sanayi Odası M. Feridun Alpat Konferans Salonunda Gerçekleşti.

www.pamukkalehaber.com

 

[Ecderha]

I said this 10 years ago. We need at least 35 tons of presses to build aircraft bulkheads. In fact, 50000 would be even better.

"We need at least 35 tons of presses to build aircraft bulkheads"!
Are there Turkish company which building this kind of presses?

 

[DBdev]

ASAŞ already invested in a 15.000 tons press that costs 100 million euros apparently. It says biggest in the Europe. Can't TEI simply use their press? They are in Istanbul not Eskisehir though.

ASAŞ 100 Milyon Euro Yatırımla Avrupa’nın En Büyük Ekstrüzyon Pres Hattına Sahip Olacak | Automationtr

www.automationtr.com

 

[Fuzuli NL]

PG115, what is more surprising despite of all these new drones, TAF still operating Herons (30k hours in 2020, now 55k), 6-7K on annual basis.

They are using any equipment to the last bit.

I think we want to make the most use of them before phasing them out gradually.
At the moment they should be the the most dispensible UAVs we have and their maintenance albeit being done mostly locally,
is in comparison with the TB-2s, still costing too much.

 

[Nilgiri]

There may be those of you that would say; why do we need presses for single crystals?
When nickel super alloys are drawn and directionally solidified to form single crystals, they also form pores that are up to a hundred microns in length inside the crystalline structure. The pores that are near the surface are the culprits for single crystals‘ failures due to creep degradation . These are faults that need to be ironed out. Hot Isostatic Presses (HIP) are used to iron out these faults and eliminate the pores.
During directional solidification, the crystals are drawn at a specific rate and temperature gradient. This method needs to be monitored carefully to decrease the pore formation as the crystal grows in a dendritic manner (like the branches of a tree) it tends to create pores.
HIP process is applied at temperatures close to the limit of the solid state of a crystal. If not managed properly the crystal may turn in to liquid and restart solidification, hence giving rise to more pore creation. So it has to be done very carefully without rushing it and remembering that as well as the crystals, the operational time of the HIP is expensive too.

In case folks assume HIP is same as mechanical conventional forges (hot or cold), they are actually pretty different.

They utilize pressured gas (normally non-reactive Argon), normally in range of 50 - 200 MPa though I have seen some come to 300 MPa as well, all with a heating element as you mention to achieve a relevant hot forge condition:

Source: https://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/products/ip/technology/hip.html

More info: https://thermalprocessing.com/the-next-level-of-hot-isostatic-pressing/

The tailored HIP cycles are the main RnD area I have read about to some degree. For example a Chinese paper I read from ~2020 iirc, the authors were saying this is where China is behind on and will have to pick up pace in coming years as demand for SX superalloy grows even more and there is greater need for self reliance in QC in Chinese aviation ecosystem (not just military but civilian too, latter is where the big throughput bucks are).

China currently has been cutoff from certain process IP here (and some capital capacities too) from West and is still reliant on them IP wise as a result till they develop own RnD chain here.

I saw this even 10 years ago with what PW was unwilling to open to China even in cold section manufacturing in the Chengdu JV, that China then deployed HR on and has likely caught up on now to whichever degree. Hot section its going to be even more contested in the years and decades to come.

There are probably takeaways here for Turkiye regarding political relationship managing to put ducks in a line as best you can first in critical component setup and robust engineer team pooling and HR management. This can take countries some measure of time depending on where are coming from and going to w.r.t objectives and priorities they have.

 

[Nilgiri]

I assume he made the statement on this symposium a few days ago.(From @Cabatli_TR post)

I haven't watched it yet.

Can one of the members here tell us if the auto-translate option on the video are decent?

If not, if one of the members here could translate to English the main salient points covered in the video, I would be much obliged.

 

[Merzifonlu]

Can one of the members here tell us if the auto-translate option on the video are decent?

I think pretty decent. Some names is wrong of course.

 

[Nilgiri]

That 15k-ton hydraulic press is for forging turbine disks. Bulkhead will be produced by 3D printer and production rate is not a problem TAI won't be producing thousands of Kaans in a year.

Well you have to look at the specific RnD of 3d printing for something this size (though same happens with forging too, but production rate is just not a chokepoint issue). To achieve a certain QC, they can be incredibly slow and there is also the post-process finishing that might be needed and time consuming too. TAI maybe later will come out with a production rate number here for 3d print + QC they have set...unless this has been estimated somewhere already.

It is more a case of the time it takes to 3D print for same QC, rather than what you can stamp out with a big enough forge.

That is probably why there is some talk of consortium of companies in Turkiye pitching in to get capital investment for larger forges. We will have to see....but that would be a route to go since there are lot of other things industrial companies can produce with such forges (each company just outsources those needs to the common facility etc).

i.e KAAN bulkheads and any other outsized aviation parts can be say 1% - 10% etc of what they are actually tasked with (and rest are things Turkish industry imports right now in broader industrial needs), though strategic need of KAAN likely will be an apex impetus for spurring this to take shape, we will have to see:

Mr Akşit: "We are trying to persuade SSB support to establish a company with our industrialists for hydraulic forging operations of Titanium and Nickel super alloys with a capacity of 15,000+ tons press. SSB said they will support"

 

[DBdev]

@Nilgiri or anyone who can answer:

As long as size, diameter stays the same among some other factors thrust of turbofan engines mainly depend on heat resistance of blade material. Is that accurate?

And what would be the thrust for a F110 sized KAAN engine if TEI cannot get past 1200C and gets stuck at 3rd generation alloy CMX10?

Considering XF-9's 5th generation blades can withstand 1800C, aren't Japanese further ahead than even USA?

Is there a website that lists what alloy is used on which military fighter aircraft engine?

 

[Nilgiri]

As long as size, diameter stays the same among some other factors thrust of turbofan engines mainly depend on heat resistance of blade material. Is that accurate?

Yes, that is more or less accurate. The higher the temperature a turbine can process, holding everything else the same, you increase the Tout - Tin that marks the basic carnot efficiency (1 - Tin/Tout).

Means you can either get higher thrust for each input, or get lower input (better fuel economy) for each thrust.

Max thrust comes from max input.

And what would be the thrust for a F110 sized KAAN engine if TEI cannot get past 1200C and gets stuck at 3rd generation alloy CMX10?

Easiest way to do this is carnot efficiency correlation with existing engines and scaling things from there. I will have a look at it later, if another hasn't given you estimate by then.

Considering XF-9's 5th generation blades can withstand 1800C, aren't Japanese further ahead than even USA?

Its another thing I will have to look into more and get back to you. Is there a good English paper available?

The issue with lot of frontier prototype engines is what ultimately becomes feasible for economy of scale (I don't mean just the number of engines here but the number of parts within them and feedback loops governing them in operation over time).

Certain compromises get made, lot of the engines you see today in operation (F110, F119 et al) all had more apex parameters in prototype stage etc with what was at hand tech wise and feasibility wise at the time, that needed to adjust to production and feedback.

I am unsure (past some general concepts) what the prototype specifics are like in western military ecosystem here these days for comparison with Japan effort here. It would require a deep delve in some papers. Maybe others can again help in interim if they have come across something useful already.

 

[Baryshx]

"We need at least 35 tons of presses to build aircraft bulkheads"!
Are there Turkish company which building this kind of presses?

Of course, there is no company that can do it on this scale. In fact, there are not many countries in the world that can either.

I think I remember Konya Selçuk University did such a project, but it was a 5000-10000 press. There is also Yörük Hidrolik, they say 7000 tons, but I don't know how it is.

Such a thing can only happen with state support and organization. Together with universities and private companies working on this issue...

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Nilgiri or anyone who can answer:

And what would be the thrust for a F110 sized KAAN engine if TEI cannot get past 1200C and gets stuck at 3rd generation alloy CMX10?

Considering XF-9's 5th generation blades can withstand 1800C, aren't Japanese further ahead than even USA?

To add to @Nilgiri ’s detailed explanation;
re: the performance of jet engine and TIT (Turbine Inlet Temperature)

An engine like f110 may use 4th generation single Crystal super alloy turbine blades that are tested to withstand say 1335 degrees centigrade. But the TIT of that engine can be as high as 1510 degrees centigrade. So in order to make sure that the blades don’t melt, air cooling channels are drilled in to the blades. And cooler air (around 5-600 degrees centigrade) is blown through these channels to keep the blades from melting. In practice, often this too isn’t enough either, and a special heat resistant ceramic coating is applied to the surface of the blades to further enhance their thermal properties to withstand the higher TIT values.


As per @Nilgiri ’s post, the Hot Isostatic Press application used on single Crystal super alloys is quite different to Hot Press application used on metals. HIP is usually done with heated high pressure Argon gas

If using material A with pores and material B with uneven edges, the two press systems will have different end results.

As can be seen HIP application leaves the crystal shape intact. But the Hot Press application changes the shape.


There are engines built by GE, P&W and RR that have TIT values nearing 1700 degrees centigrade. @Nilgiri may enlighten us better here, but due to high cost base of 5th and sixth generation single crystals, most commercial and serial production line jet engines use 3rd generation and rarely 4th generation single crystals. These crystal blades normally would melt at such high TIT values. But they are made operational thanks to special cooling and ceramic coating techniques used.

An informative paper to read on HIP:

https://www.matec-conferences.org/articles/matecconf/pdf/2014/05/matecconf_eurosuperalloys14_08003.pdf

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri or anyone who can answer:

As long as size, diameter stays the same among some other factors thrust of turbofan engines mainly depend on heat resistance of blade material. Is that accurate?

And what would be the thrust for a F110 sized KAAN engine if TEI cannot get past 1200C and gets stuck at 3rd generation alloy CMX10?

Considering XF-9's 5th generation blades can withstand 1800C, aren't Japanese further ahead than even USA?

Is there a website that lists what alloy is used on which military fighter aircraft engine?

If we are to take a TH of 1500 C (1773 K) for F110 and assume TC of say 300 K.

We get Carnot efficiency of 1 - (300/1773) = 0.83

For a TH of 1200 C(1473 K)

Carnot efficiency would be 1 - (300/1473) = 0.8

We can assume the actual thermal efficiency (somewhere in 30 - 40% vicinity) faces a factor of at least 0.8/0.83 = 0.96

So a carbon copy (keeping everything else the same, incl propulsive efficiencies et al) of F110 but running with TH of 1200C would have a thrust reduction of that commensurate amount at least.

i.e say max (with reheat) thrust = 131 kN, it would now be 131*0.96 = 125kN

Dry thrust of 76kN, would now be 73 kN

These are some assumption heavy + quick calculations (there would be some more attrition in reality given the larger design optimized compressor + innards for mass airflow rate of the original higher TH of F110 etc).

But you can see just how small % increment the whole field is now in these efficiency matters.

You can also see the main benefit of newer generation SX and other material science advancements have much more to do with Mean Time between Overhaul (and everything else MRO and reliability related) and the immense cost savings (and availability increases of the powerplants) there....rather than thrust increases or fuel consumption decrease etc.

 

[DBdev]

Superalloys are such a super fascinating subject. Science fiction, espionage, fate of the nations all decided by arranging a few elements and making impossible possible.

I believe this is how TEI intends to create 3D printed CMSX-10 turbine blades. Slower but easier way. I wonder what other next gen alloys, coatings or production methods they will learn. Industrial secrecy and espionage is another exciting aspect of the matter. His father says Mahmut Akşit survived several assassination attempts by America after he refused a blank check from GE to stay there.

Superalloy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Additive manufacturing[edit]​

Selective laser melting (also known as powder bed fusion) is an additive manufacturing procedure used to create intricately detailed forms from a CAD file. A shape is designed and then converted into slices. These slices are sent to a laser writer to print the final product. In brief, a bed of metal powder is prepared, and a slice is formed in the powder bed by a high energy laser sintering the particles together. The powder bed moves downwards, and a new batch of metal powder is rolled over the top. This layer is then sintered with the laser, and the process is repeated until all slices have been processed.[45] Additive manufacturing can leave pores behind. Many products undergo a heat treatment or hot isostatic pressing procedure to densify the product and reduce porosity.[46]"