TR Propulsion Systems

[boredaf]

Sorry, based on ther Rotax engine experiences they make a engine that is stronger and more economical people will buy it.

Did they though? We only have a tweet to based that on, they haven't released any data or specs. And, this argument has been used for a lot of things and it doesn't always work like that. It is great that they will be able to cut their reliance on foreign engines for TB2, but it doesn't mean other companies will line up to buy it if they get the civilian certification.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Why would anyone prefer that over the plentiful, already established engines with already working production lines? This is an engine made with over the counter stuff, not some miracle and it would be entering an already crowded field and not just with countries that are sanction happy.

Better, cheaper, and with less restrictions and no strings attached.
You could potentially add better logistic terms and maintenance options, longer guarantee periods. The list goes on...

 

[boredaf]

Better, cheaper, and with less restrictions and no strings attached.
You could potentially add better logistic terms and maintenance options, longer guarantee periods. The list goes on...

There is no logistic or maintenance options yet as there is only prototypes, you have no idea if it is going to be cheaper and better than every other engine in its class and as I said there are multiple countries that sell this class of engines you can't just say less restrictions, as companies that are going to buy these engines are also limited.

But whatever, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If they could produce enough to cover their own TB2 production that is more than enough. Wasting money and resources on trying to get into a field that is already filled with established competition for an engine that'll be 10-20k (at most) is really unnecessary imo.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Wasting money and resources on trying to get into a field that is already filled with established competition for an engine that'll be 10-20k (at most) is really unnecessary imo.

Yep. Piston engines are much more available compared to let's say a turbofan engine. To certify TS-1400 and TF-6000 would make sense compared to that.

 

[Agha Sher]

There is no logistic or maintenance options yet as there is only prototypes, you have no idea if it is going to be cheaper and better than every other engine in its class and as I said there are multiple countries that sell this class of engines you can't just say less restrictions, as companies that are going to buy these engines are also limited.

But whatever, everyone is entitled to their opinion. If they could produce enough to cover their own TB2 production that is more than enough. Wasting money and resources on trying to get into a field that is already filled with established competition for an engine that'll be 10-20k (at most) is really unnecessary imo.

Relax. It was merely said that is could become a civilian product as well. Which is something Baykar has said that Türkiye needs to leap into in general. It will not be tomorrow. But if Baykar desires it, they will make it happen.

 

[Oublious]

Did they though? We only have a tweet to based that on, they haven't released any data or specs. And, this argument has been used for a lot of things and it doesn't always work like that. It is great that they will be able to cut their reliance on foreign engines for TB2, but it doesn't mean other companies will line up to buy it if they get the civilian certification.

When the dust clears and we have more information we say with 100%, for now we can speculate. When the quality matches or is better and the price is lower. In order to make it economically feasible we will need a civillian market for it, all that companies who are draged in need orders and defence industry is not enough. If we want to turn in to industry country we will need to push all the buttons.

 

[hugh]

When the dust clears and we have more information we say with 100%, for now we can speculate. When the quality matches or is better and the price is lower. In order to make it economically feasible we will need a civillian market for it, all that companies who are draged in need orders and defence industry is not enough. If we want to turn in to industry country we will need to push all the buttons.

TB2 uses Rotax 912 engine. In 2014, the company has revealed that they delivered over 50 thousand Rotax 912 engines and has over 45 million hours of cumulative flight hours.

A few hundred local engines on TB2s won't make the fraction of the reliability or the decades of experience your competitor has under his belt. How are you going to beat that? Everyone and their mothers have access to these engines. Why would they buy yours?

 

[Oublious]

TB2 uses Rotax 912 engine. In 2014, the company has revealed that they delivered over 50 thousand Rotax 912 engines and has over 45 million hours of cumulative flight hours.

A few hundred local engines on TB2s won't make the fraction of the reliability or the decades of experience your competitor has under his belt. How are you going to beat that? Everyone and their mothers have access to these engines. Why would they buy yours?

I have explained it, if the quality matches and price is cheaper they will forget ther mother.

 

[Oublious]

And who says everybody is happy with Rotax? Is ther no problems with the engine?

 

[Agha Sher]

TB2 uses Rotax 912 engine. In 2014, the company has revealed that they delivered over 50 thousand Rotax 912 engines and has over 45 million hours of cumulative flight hours.

A few hundred local engines on TB2s won't make the fraction of the reliability or the decades of experience your competitor has under his belt. How are you going to beat that? Everyone and their mothers have access to these engines. Why would they buy yours?

It is not like that TM100 will take all og Rotax’s market share. There will definitely be a segment for TM100 be it due to price, quality or geopolitical.

 

[Sanchez]

Certifying an engine and creating the campaigning and aftersales support for it are probably harder than building an engine, in a market like very light general aviation. Firstly, there are no current Turkish builders that would use it. If Baykar sees a possibility there, it will try to enter the American and German markets, as there are no other markets. That means FAA and EASA certification. That's a multi year process, but it's doable.

Then, Baykar would need to advertise the engine to builders, so that they would choose it over more readily available options. Builders in this market are all small time builders, so they want a cheap, reliable engine with aftersale support readily available, so that they won't have to worry about the engine. Entering that market is hard, but it's again doable.

Next hurdle is the aftersale support with maintainers on site, that would require distributors in multiple cities. Which is again doable but expensive.

All things considered, it's an entirely business choice from Baykar and its partners whether they enter GA or not, I don't really think it's a defence issue at all. We never had any actual problems with procuring Rotax engines until now, and we won't have any problems with it in the future. They grow on trees. Anyone can start a simple LLC and buy 20 crates of them for anything.

 

[Iskander]

TB2 uses Rotax 912 engine. In 2014, the company has revealed that they delivered over 50 thousand Rotax 912 engines and has over 45 million hours of cumulative flight hours.

A few hundred local engines on TB2s won't make the fraction of the reliability or the decades of experience your competitor has under his belt. How are you going to beat that? Everyone and their mothers have access to these engines. Why would they buy yours?

No need to worry about a lack of customers. In the worst case, Kazakhstan will buy.
For its new ally - South Cyprus.
Their mutual love is in full swing

 

[Zafer]

Light Sport Aircraft regulations allow up to two seats and allow the use of non-certified aircraft engines. TM100 can typically fly a two seat plane. If you go twin engine it can go to 4 seats. They can make 4 seaters even with a single 115 hp engine so probably a twin engine can fly 6 seats. But any more than two seats will go to higher regulations in which certified engines maybe required (need to find out).

Baykar have footprint in around 40 countries already and still growing. So their reach is already substantial and adding the civilian market to their audience is an easy move to make.

Rotax dominates the 4 piston engine market with market share estimates going between 70-90 %. However this does not stop newcomers from entering the market. Baykar can probably get to #2 position after Rotax in say 10 years and with maybe 30% if they really want to. However compared to military products civilian market is not as profitable. Still going forward Baykar may need additional steady streams of income as the market demand in the military can fluctuate over time.

If the civilian market shows a promising growth in the future Baykar can even broaden their efforts and be the second Rotax in the future. In this case they can get some of their engines certified.

The MOSAIC initiative int the US is targeting the broadening of the LSA classification and can lead to a broader market. The USA small aircraft market accounts for half of the world market.

Rotax's #1 position comes from their engines' reliability and good power/weight ratio and diligent Austrian engineering and workmanship. They can get more power per cc of displacement than the follower Continental and Lycoming brands which cater to 4-6 seater market.

There is no lack of Turkish entrepreneurs who wanted to make LSA planes, I can count 5 of them off the top of my head.

Helicopters can use such engines too, and TEI can join the party.

 

[hugh]

Light Sport Aircraft regulations allow up to two seats and allow the use of non-certified aircraft engines. TM100 can typically fly a two seat plane. If you go twin engine it can go to 4 seats. They can make 4 seaters even with a single 115 hp engine so probably a twin engine can fly 6 seats. But any more than two seats will go to higher regulations in which certified engines maybe required (need to find out).

Baykar have footprint in around 40 countries already and still growing. So their reach is already substantial and adding the civilian market to their audience is an easy move to make.

Rotax dominates the 4 piston engine market with market share estimates going between 70-90 %. However this does not stop newcomers from entering the market. Baykar can probably get to #2 position after Rotax in say 10 years and with maybe 30% if the really want to. However compared to military products civilian market is not as profitable. Still going forward Baykar may need additional steady streams of income as the market demand in the military can fluctuate over time.

If the civilian market shows a promising growth in the future Baykar can even broaden their efforts and be the second Rotax in the future. In this case they can get some of their engines certified.

The MOSAIC initiative int the US is targeting the broadening of the LSA classification and can lead to a broader market. The USA small aircraft market accounts for half of the world market.

Rotax's #1 position comes from their engines' reliability and good power/weight ratio and diligent Austrian engineering and workmanship. They can get more power per cc of displacement than the follower Continental and Lycoming brands which cater to 4-6 seater market.

There is no lack of Turkish entrepreneurs who wanted to make LSA planes, I can count 5 of them off the top of my head.

Helicopters can use such engines too, and TEI can join the party.

Chatgpt responses are not allowed on the forum

 

[Zafer]

Chatgpt responses are not allowed on the forum

That's all my words.

 

[Zafer]

4 out of 7 100hp 912 series Rotax engines are uncertified

912 iS Uncertified, 75 kW (100 hp) with direct fuel injection and an electronic engine management unit. Green cylinder head caps (GCHC)
912 iSc Certified, 75 kW (100 hp) with direct fuel injection and an electronic engine management unit
912 iS Sport Uncertified, aluminum airbox, longer intake runners and eco-mode when operated below 97% power setting. GCHC
912 iSC Sport Certified, GCHC
912 S# Certified to FAR 33, 75 kW (100 hp) with larger bore than 912A/F/UL, with dual carburetors and electronic ignition. GCHC
912 ULS# Uncertified, 75 kW (100 hp), similar to the 912S. GCHC
912 ULSFR# Uncertified French Authority specification. 75 kW (100 hp)

 

[sh. Abdj]

I think Baykar are thinking of long term.

Benefits of having their own engine:

- Being able to reduce their cost, and hard currency use.
- Safer as what happened in Lebanon to the pagers shows you have to be so careful when supplying your soldiers with any foreign technology.
- new market. Baykar had bought some civilians companies in Italy and other countries so its clear they want to enter civilians market.
- War time production. In case of war Baykar could have to produce big numbers of drones while being sanctioned.
- Big Kamikaze drones. In case of big war tens of thousands of big kamikaze drones could be needed and the foreign supply could just not be enough as every one will priorities their army.
- Knowledge. It could be a process to gain knowledge wich will act as a base to produce bigger engines in the future.
- Taking advantage of the successful brand name. As Baykar proved successful why not increase the variety of products if every department can fund it self and be profitable by time.

 

[what]

Good for Baykar and Competition is good, but the playing field is not level.

 

[Zafer]

https://slingaircraft.nz/aircraft/sling-2/

A new 2 seater plane with a 100hp engine has the following specs

 

[Zafer]

TM100 engine of Baykar has two large alternators that provide electric power to the electrical systems on board. This takes power away from the propulsion leaving 100 hp to the propulsion. However a civilian system will not need as much power for the electrical systems. So a derivative engine from this engine can use smaller alternators and have a bigger power left for propulsion. I am guessing such a derivative engine can have as much as 110 hp to 115 hp propulsion power, looking at the large size of the alternators. This kind of power can be used to power both 2 seater and 4 seater airplanes. Rotax has 141 hp and the new 160 engines for 4 seaters but 115 hp is reportedly also used for 4 seaters.

Below is a new design 3 place fast-build KIT plane that uses 2 Rotax engines. Twin engines increase safety. The Florida maker invented this plane for a National Geographic video shoot in DR Congo and he needed a safe plane that will not emergency land as everywhere is covered with rainforests and the only way to land is to go back to base. He sold 275 kits until two and a half years ago. Mostly used for sightseeing. During his stay in DR Congo a military coup occurred and with 6 hours flight time he felt safer in the air than he would be on the ground, he said.