TR Propulsion Systems

[Spitfire9]

???
TF35K (maybe it will be TF38K) will be already a 5G engine.

My bad. I was thinking of 6G engines, not 5G engines.

 

[Zoth]

As far as I know South Korea is hoping to develop an engine with similar thrust to GE F414 by 2035. That would not be sufficient thrust for the engine to be used in Kaan.

What changes would be needed for TF35K to become a 5G engine? Why take on a much more demanding development challenge when the priority is to gain security of supply for an engine for Kaan? If Turkiye opts to take the 5G route and in 2030/2031/2032 finds itself with no engines to put in production frames, it will have no-one to blame but its own planners.

I have no insight into the political risk of use of F110 in Kaan being denied, so my reservations about going for 5G development may be unfounded. However, I think it possible that the US will continue tightening measures against countries dealing with Russia, Turkiye being one of them.

TF35000 won't be made out of thin air, it has no possibility to fail but only get delayed.

TF35000 will be made out of TF-10000 engine which is already in design and in production-test phase.

I know me saying " has no possibility to fail" is over exaggerating, but once you already have capabilities and industry to design and test fire more than 60 times successfully an engine like tf-6000, the rest is only matter of when and not matter of if.

 

[Saithan]

I don't understand the mindset of people thinking it's too late to develop an engine for e.g. Hürkus, Atak, pt6 type engine.

So we should just give up because someone else beat us to it. Don't bother because the others are better. You know TN had to struggle because of that kind of mindset and today we can be proud of their achievements.

We've said it several times here, but people still fall back to that mindset.

 

[Zafer]

We know that TEI are working on a 3000hp turboshaft engine but what we don't know is if they will be working on a turboprop from that engine too.

 

[byzero]

General Electric is working on a very efficient 3000 HP turboshaft engine that uses ceramic maxris composite and eutectic materials. Tei is working on these materials but still does not have the knowledge to use them in an engine, so it will not be very efficient for Tei to produce a 3000 HP engine.

 

[Zafer]

General Electric is working on a very efficient 3000 HP turboshaft engine that uses ceramic maxris composite and eutectic materials. Tei is working on these materials but still does not have the knowledge to use them in an engine, so it will not be very efficient for Tei to produce a 3000 HP engine.

TEI's engine doesn't need to be cutting edge, it is OK if it is even comparable to GE's existing engine which I guess there isn't one in that power class. Who even needs to compare ones own work to somebody else's foreign work.

 

[byzero]

Ukraine has a 2500 HP turboshaft engine. I think it is not difficult to produce it in Turkey with a license agreement. In fact, with the technological capabilities it has, it can increase the power of this engine by 30.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ukraine has a 2500 HP turboshaft engine. I think it is not difficult to produce it in Turkey with a license agreement. In fact, with the technological capabilities it has, it can increase the power of this engine by 30.

It would make it more intelligible if in your post you clarified which “it” you are talking about.
Iam guessing that you mean, with the technological capability of Turkey, we can even increase power to 3000HP ???

We have discussed these issues in previous pages many times over. The so called 2500HP Ukranian engine, if memory serves, doesn’t even have FADEC. Also it is far from providing the necessary power our armed forces are expecting. The technology it uses is Soviet era and nowhere near that is commensurate with a modern helicopter like T929. Besides with all the recent bombing the Ukranian factory is not in a position to supply any engines.

TEI already produces a 2000HP class engine under license, namely, T700TEI700D . This is the Turkish version of the famous T700 produced by GE. Same engine has a version with 3000HP output power. There is a clause in our license agreement that allows us to make changes to the engine with GE’s consent. All we have to do is to activate that clause and of course prolong the license agreement.

Alternatively if we can allocate financial, and more importantly, Human Resources to the project; we can then design and produce this engine ourselves. But that will take in excess of 6 years before it can be flying the serial production helicopters.

 

[byzero]

We are interpreting the issue technically, but if Turkey has the chance to produce advanced US-made engines under license for domestic attack helicopters, the decision to buy old-tech turboshaft engines from Ukraine is not a technical choice, but a political one. The SSB and other authorities probably think that the US Congress will make a problem.

 

[Sanchez]

TEI already produces a 2000HP class engine under license, namely, T700TEI700D . This is the Turkish version of the famous T700 produced by GE. Same engine has a version with 3000HP output power. There is a clause in our license agreement that allows us to make changes to the engine with GE’s consent. All we have to do is to activate that clause and of course prolong the license agreement.

This would mean linking two of our helicopter projects to US. And the chance of this being accepted is low, meanwhile it's not even clear that we will get to build all the ordered T70s as its license is yet to be extended.

 

[boredaf]

meanwhile it's not even clear that we will get to build all the ordered T70s as its license is yet to be extended.

That has been such a big mistake, wasting the license like this. What number were we at, not even half unless I'm mistaken?

 

[Sanchez]

That has been such a big mistake, wasting the license like this. What number were we at, not even half unless I'm mistaken?

It's not like they played around. Aselsan's avionics suite took years to mature, which led to the delay in production start. That's why gendarme got S70i's from PZL.

Unsure about latest numbers but I think it should be at about 40+ by the year's end, which is presumably when the license ends. Order was for 109.

 

[Saithan]

I am not sure if the we'd be able to get any more license production as things are now. and getting a license build agreement with Ukraine is likely not going to be easy either.

If a third country that is extremely friendly with Türkiye were to be used as a middle ground then it might be useful, but to be realistic I don't think any such thing will happen as the world is atm, so we need to get our own engines out there working it's ass off while we gain knowledge and real life data and 10-20 is not enough we need hundreds/thousands of our own engine to start building that database of knowledge.

 

[Sanchez]

I am not sure if the we'd be able to get any more license production as things are now. and getting a license build agreement with Ukraine is likely not going to be easy either.

If a third country that is extremely friendly with Türkiye were to be used as a middle ground then it might be useful, but to be realistic I don't think any such thing will happen as the world is atm, so we need to get our own engines out there working it's ass off while we gain knowledge and real life data and 10-20 is not enough we need hundreds/thousands of our own engine to start building that database of knowledge.

We already do, it takes time and lots of manhours. You can't rush these things but we still need new platforms and airframes. T625 is still in testing with its foreign engines, TS1400 is not yet ready and that thing has been in development since 2017.

 

[Zoth]

What baffles me since a very long time is that what we are going to do if we fail to acquire more F110 Engines for Kaan until we manage to develop TF-35000 into operational state?

We have some alternatives(WS10, WS15, AL41/51) but i really doubt that we will try to get those unless we get really cornered.

 

[somegoodusername]

What baffles me since a very long time is that what we are going to do if we fail to acquire more F110 Engines for Kaan until we manage to develop TF-35000 into operational state?

If Turkish-American relations falls back to that level, you won't have time to talk about Kaan and F-110 engines. In my opinions that F-110 engines are more secure even than the Hürjet's F-404 engines.

 

[hugh]

If Turkish-American relations falls back to that level, you won't have time to talk about Kaan and F-110 engines. In my opinions that F-110 engines are more secure even than the Hürjet's F-404 engines.

It's highly doubtful that we could get those engines(F110s) without they drag us through the mud first. In fact, the chance of them denying us those engines is not below 50% in my opinion. We will be in a very rude awakening.

 

[Zoth]

It's highly doubtful that we could get those engines(F110s) without they drag us through the mud first. In fact, the chance of them denying us those engines is not below 50% in my opinion. We will be in a very rude awakening.

I also think similarly, which it was my main question, i wonder what we are going to do if USA denies us those engines.

 

[hugh]

I also think similarly, which it was my main question, i wonder what we are going to do if USA denies us those engines.

For the least, we'd say "auf wiedersehen" to the US soldiers in Incirlik and NATO membership would be put in question.

 

[Zoth]

For the least, we'd say "auf wiedersehen" to the US soldiers in Incirlik and NATO membership would be put in question.

I personally think we may try to get the WS-15 engine but the question is, would China give us that very advanced engine? Maybe if the ties with USA gets torn so badly that they may consider it.

Another option is EJ-200 would the Germans let us produce and use that engine in our Kaan?

In worst case scenario where we end up not getting any engines, Kaan may be even delayed to 2032.