TR Sensors and Detector Programs

Strong AI

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A new era in anti-submarine warfare!
FERSAH Sonar System, one of the state-of-art technologies provided by ASELSAN to TCG İSTANBUL, will strengthen the power of naval platforms with its acoustic capabilities and innovative technologies.

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Afif

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
 

Bogeyman 

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
11 km but which 11 km?
Can we transfer the data we obtain through sensors to different ships? If we can, what is the range? The network-centric operational capability of USVs beyond their submarine detection range is also important.

If we had such a capability, we would spread USVs across the sea. And our detection range would extend beyond what we could achieve with a single platform.
 

Anmdt

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
I have little more than general knowledge of ASW and sonar technology. And I think it has more to do with game theory than technical aspects.

A submarine would rarely need to get that close to a target (in cases where it is conducting ISR or SOF missions, but not engagement), and hull-mounted sonar (which is a mid-frequency sonar and typically its range is limited by the damping effect of mid-high frequency underwater sound waves due to water properties - salinity, temperature and foreign materials that change conductivity, and therefore the Navy also regularly collects CTD information -) so it is more of a precautionary measure that is conducted in pairs and sometimes in flotilla formation. As the waters get shallow, it both gets hard for the submarine and for the ASW assets.

A submarine may be able to outrun a ship sailing at sonar-operating speed, but once a typical submarine exceeds the silent speed regime, it starts to shine on any sonar receiver (even if it operates in passive mode). Also, most ASW assets have towed arrays capable of detecting torpedoes as well as submarines from longer distances than active mid-frequency sonar, in passive mode.

So a mere 11 km should never be interpreted alone, but with the effect of the towed array, flotilla formation and within game theory aspects.

So to wrap it up, a submarine always has the advantage of being undetected, but once it has revealed its probabilities of location, it has less survivability than any surface asset and is likely to be doomed (note the ASW helicopters equipped with LWTs and dipping sonars that will outrun any submarine, or can work in tandem with hull mounted mid-frequency sonar).
 

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I have little more than general knowledge of ASW and sonar technology. And I think it has more to do with game theory than technical aspects.

A submarine would rarely need to get that close to a target (in cases where it is conducting ISR or SOF missions, but not engagement), and hull-mounted sonar (which is a mid-frequency sonar and typically its range is limited by the damping effect of mid-high frequency underwater sound waves due to water properties - salinity, temperature and foreign materials that change conductivity, and therefore the Navy also regularly collects CTD information -) so it is more of a precautionary measure that is conducted in pairs and sometimes in flotilla formation. As the waters get shallow, it both gets hard for the submarine and for the ASW assets.

A submarine may be able to outrun a ship sailing at sonar-operating speed, but once a typical submarine exceeds the silent speed regime, it starts to shine on any sonar receiver (even if it operates in passive mode). Also, most ASW assets have towed arrays capable of detecting torpedoes as well as submarines from longer distances than active mid-frequency sonar, in passive mode.

So a mere 11 km should never be interpreted alone, but with the effect of the towed array, flotilla formation and within game theory aspects.

So to wrap it up, a submarine always has the advantage of being undetected, but once it has revealed its probabilities of location, it has less survivability than any surface asset and is likely to be doomed (note the ASW helicopters equipped with LWTs and dipping sonars that will outrun any submarine, or can work in tandem with hull mounted mid-frequency sonar).

Thank you. That is what I was hoping to hear. Low frequency Towed sonar is indispensable for effective ASW. If I am not mistaken HIZIR had low frequency passive array, should it be enough to listen for Submarine at a more significant distance than Mid-frequency hull mounted active sonar?

Or active low frequency emission is required hence Dufas is needed? I mean, Submarine themselves never ping.
 
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Anmdt

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Thank you. That is what I was hoping to hear. Low frequency Towed sonar is indispensable for effective ASW. If I am not mistaken HIZIR had low frequency passive array, should it be enough to listen for Submarine at a more significant distance than Mid-frequency hull mounted active sonar?

Or active low frequency emission is required hence Dufas is needed? I mean, Submarine themselves never ping.
Submarines emit low frequency noise from their wakes or propellers, or from auxiliary noise (machinery, vibration, crew walking around, HVAC units, other mechanical sources, etc.) and/or when they switch on active sonar for various reasons. So a passive array sonar would still work for detection depending on the scenario.

An active towed sonar can change depth to ping at a depth where submarines can dive - using underwater currents, high gradients in salinity/density and temperature for reflectivity and concealment*. Or a low-frequency sonar can emit high sound power at low frequencies that are less susceptible to damping by distance**, allowing targets to be picked up/detected at greater distances. So, yes, it adds another dimension to ASW, as does a variable depth sonar. Also, compared to hull-mounted sonars, towed array sonars have less interference from the ship's own noise and can be built larger due to the flexibility of space, or can be used to form multistatic configuration with one vessel.

*Depending at the conditions there exists an underwater sound channel which sound is entrapped and travels with less lossess, so VDS may opt to listen in here or the dipping sonar may opt to be here.

**These properties highly vary by the sea, season. That is another reason why Navies have a high interest in hydrograpghy, oceaonagraphy and survey vessels, or they fund scientific researches in these field, or pay great interest in them to be supported by the state.

An ASW mission currently includes;

-Detection
MTI-SAR / Surface Search Radar***
Sonobuoys + MAD
Helicopter + dipping sonar
Hull mounted sonar
Towed array (passive unit)+ Variable depth (active unit) sonar

-Engagement
LWT from MPA / Helicopter / ASW asset
VL-ASROC / Depth Chargers

These are applicable for high seas ASW. As I said, I believe it becomes complex for both sides in shallow seas and even commercial fishing - high frequency sonar can be used to hunt submarines at those conditions since the maneuverability is highly restricted.

*** Once a submarine surfaces the periscope, it is morelikely to be detected by radars of surface assets, or MTI-SAR of MPA assets than being picked out by MAD or sonars. A Submarine utilizes periscope for engagement or Intelligence missions, or near surface navigations.
 

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ASELSAN AREAS Compact Surface Electronic Attack System, which provides electronic warfare capability to an unmanned marine vehicle for the first time in the world, can eliminate threats with the most advanced techniques.

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So, the previous report about it being already flown on Akinci is false?
 
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Trakya_forever

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We are doing this for the first time. Trying to produce one of the newest and best AESA radar for the fighters. This process is so normal.
 

Strong AI

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It's been "counting days" for the first flight for the last ten months or so.
If i remember correctly, after the first tests of MURAD, they wanted to revise it.
So maybe this news refers to the revised version of MURAD.
ASELSAN MURAD AESA Radar system was integrated into Akıncı TUAV and an unnamed jet aircraft.

Tests were conducted on Akıncı and as a result of these tests, both the platform and the radar were revised.

Some members do not understand how complex these kind of systems can be. And Aselsan is doing this the first time ever.
But i do not understand, why these big companies always need to give dates.
 

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
 

uçuyorum

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
You don't have to transfer all data just put the computer on Akıncı and use remote console
 

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
This is entirely a data link related problem. The platform has nothing to do with it. Currently, our data link capacity is very weak.
 

Strong AI

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Meteksan Defence developed KAPAN CounterDrone System for military and security officers to help them fight with drone threats. KAPAN offers a superior drone detection, tracking and neutralization performance with its high technology drone detection radar, electro-optic and jammer sub-systems. The target drone, which is detected and started to track with the radar, is identified with thermal / day cameras and more precise positioning and tracking are performed. The direction and position information of the target drone provided by sensors can be assigned to the RF jammer for neutralization.

 

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{ElectroOptical}
TEPES Telescopic Periscope System is a surveillance system for usage behind the defilade that provides long-distance surveillance. The capabilities of the system such as motion detection, target tracking, sectoral screening, interoperability with other systems provide tactical effectiveness.

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