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TR Sensors and Detector Programs

Bogeyman 

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National technologies are ready to take to the field for 5G

Communication Technologies Cluster (HTK) organized the TRNC Communication Technologies Summit with the support of the Cyprus Entrepreneurship and Technology Investment Association (GİTYAD), the main sponsor of the Mobilefest Fair, and the sponsorship of TRNC Turkcell and TRNC Telsim.

Cluster President, ULAK Communication Board Member and ASELSAN Deputy General Manager Mustafa Yaman answered the AA reporter's questions about the work carried out by HTK members and national communication technologies within the scope of the summit.

Stating that the cluster established within Ostim in 2017 brings together local and national companies working in the field of communication technologies, Mustafa Yaman said that they currently have more than 150 members.

Stating that they aim to create cooperation and unity among their members through clustering, Yaman stated that bringing their members together with customers, operators or other businesses that can use these products is among their priority duties.

Stating that they organized various events for these purposes, Yaman said that the summit in TRNC was an important part of them.

Pointing out that TRNC has recently switched to 4.5G and that it is aimed to switch to 5G within 3 years, Yaman evaluated that TRNC stands out as a good market due to these developments.

Explaining that they brought together their members with operators, regulatory institutions, companies and universities in TRNC at the event, Yaman stated that they discussed possible opportunities in a number of areas, from increasing service quality to developing the ecosystem and human resources.

In response to the question about the goals of HTK and its members in TRNC, Mustafa Yaman said:

"We are committed to everything that will be done here from now on. As Communication Technologies Cluster companies, we are committed to all the work to be done in this field. There may have been contributions to the work done, but we want more. We aim for more from now on. We want them to give us the next infrastructure installations and deliver them. This is We are as assertive as we are. Our request is to use our local and national technology here both in the development and dissemination of 4.5G and in the transition to 5G. Our companies are making intense efforts for this. They are trying to make progress in this regard. If a task is given, we will believe that the development here will accelerate even more and now Turkish We believe that companies will also become big players. We want to be given a region in TRNC or Turkey. We want to install this end-to-end technology here.

It makes no difference to us whether this happens here or in Turkey. If it happens here, it will be an advantage for Turkey, as a result, a little more progress will be made and it will go to Turkey in a more developed state and this place will also be updated. There is also an advantage to leaving early. It would be much more advantageous to start here since it is a controllable area. We will discuss this with the ministry, institutions and operators in TRNC. After that, if they trust us and give us this job, we would like to start here. "We are competent to fulfill this task and we are willing to do it."

Yaman stated that they will evaluate the expansion of fiber optic infrastructure in TRNC with their members.

"The key should be with local and national companies"

Stating that within the scope of the "end-to-end 5G project" that started in Turkey in 2018, companies have developed various products and have reached a certain stage, and that development work continues, Yaman said that new products continue to be released.

Stating that they made new evaluations in the light of these developments, Yaman said:

"We will evaluate whether we have any shortcomings or not. Our goal is not to have everything from needle to thread to be local. Because this is not always appropriate and doable. There is no point in localizing some things because they are not critical. That's why other products can be used in some areas. "We are not against it. The important thing is that the dominance is local and national. Communication should be handled holistically and created locally and nationally, and the remaining parts should be completed with different manufacturers if necessary. The key here should be local and national companies."

"We can become a center of attraction"

"When the cake is small, the shares are also small. We need to make the cake bigger." Mustafa Yaman said, pointing out that the way to achieve this is through exports.

Stating that both HTK and its members are making efforts in this regard, Yaman emphasized that the contribution and support of state officials in exports is also very important.

Stating that communication technologies are included in all infrastructures and are of very critical importance, Yaman said, "Health, agriculture, food security and defense... All of these are based on communication infrastructure. We attach great importance to local and nationality here. That is why, as Turkey, we should take control of our infrastructures as soon as possible." "We need to hire more engineers and we need to work harder for this. In this way, we can keep more engineers in the country, train better engineers, create more employment, our earnings will increase and I think we can become a center of attraction." said.

"We must have the chip"

Pointing out that the way to achieve the goals in communication technologies is to make products cost-effective, Mustafa Yaman said:

"Cost effectiveness depends on making the products more compact. You need to be able to do the work you do in large blocks with a chip. Communication technologies are one of the most suitable areas for this work. Therefore, we need to advance in chip technologies. We will develop more products, we will turn the blocks into chips in the products. Chip Hopefully, design and chip production will be done in Turkey in the future. This is how a country develops. Systems are now located on a chip. If you cannot have a chip, your products will not be preferred tomorrow. That is why we definitely need to switch to chip technology.

We have a company working on this in the cluster. They are trying to move forward with various supports and projects. We need to create jobs and provide income for them. Because chip design is expensive, chip production is more expensive. These infrastructures need to be established. We have some way to go in this regard, but we are persistent and I believe we will move forward. The development of the defense industry in the last 20 years is obvious. Trusting the companies, it was said that these works could be done in Turkey, and Turkish engineers succeeded in this job. The situation we have reached after 20 years is obvious. Here too, if it is reliable, this sector will progress like the defense industry and make a name for itself in the world."


 

Afif

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"On the other hand, in addition to TÜBİTAK BİLGEM EHPOD, a Tactical Electronic Support Pod (EDPOD) is also being developed for the F-16 Aircraft. EDPOD also has a similar outer shell with the 300-gallon external fuel tank carried under the fuselage in F-16 Aircraft. The EDPOD System, which was exhibited for the first time at the TUBITAK stand at the IDEF '19 Fair, will detect and diagnose threat radars and contribute to the Electronic Order of Battle (EOB) by using their geographical location information. EH actually begins long before the moment of encounter with enemy aircraft and/or missiles. First of all, the information and data regarding the surface, underwater, air and land platforms that will pose a threat, the operating bands/frequencies of the radars and sensors on them, and the weapon systems they carry are collected through EDT/ELINT Systems in case of peace and uploaded to the EW Information Bank and all areas in the operation area are collected. A reliable and high-resolution 'Electronic Order of Battle/EOB' that will include potential threats [surface, underwater, air and land-based] needs to be prepared. Because the reaction starts after the EOB is formed. Thanks to the preparation of the EOB in advance, it will be easier for friendly elements to establish dominance in the area. Tactical EDPOD System can detect threat radars with its Broadband and Narrow Band Receivers. Following detection, the arrival direction, frequency, pulse width, pulse amplitude, pulse repetition interval, antenna scanning and intra-pulse modulation parameters of the threat radars are extracted. Geographic location information is calculated using the radar's direction of arrival information. The EHPOD System records the contact parameters, location information, Pulse Identification Word (DTK) values and raw Intermediate Frequency data of threat radars for post-mission analysis. It transmits the threat information it obtains to the Ground Support System and other EHPODs in the mission area via the Link-16 network. The EHPOD System also allows the records it receives to be analyzed with the software in the Ground Support System. As a result of the analyses, EHPOD and EDPOD Systems contribute to the updating of the National Joint EH Data Bank."



I think with some software modifications and data link addition, EDPOD should be able to do it.
 

Afif

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
 

Bogeyman 

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
11 km but which 11 km?
Can we transfer the data we obtain through sensors to different ships? If we can, what is the range? The network-centric operational capability of USVs beyond their submarine detection range is also important.

If we had such a capability, we would spread USVs across the sea. And our detection range would extend beyond what we could achieve with a single platform.
 

Anmdt

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@Anmdt how much towed Sonar adds to ship's ASW capability? And how effective is hull mounted sonar alone against subsurface threats.

Foe example, Mateksan's sonar on ADA class is stated to detect submarine at around 11/12km in operational condition according to defenceturkey.

Isn't that too late? Given a submarine usually fires it's torpedoes from a distance of 20km. ( from where it is still undetected yet ship cannot outrun the Torpedo)
I have little more than general knowledge of ASW and sonar technology. And I think it has more to do with game theory than technical aspects.

A submarine would rarely need to get that close to a target (in cases where it is conducting ISR or SOF missions, but not engagement), and hull-mounted sonar (which is a mid-frequency sonar and typically its range is limited by the damping effect of mid-high frequency underwater sound waves due to water properties - salinity, temperature and foreign materials that change conductivity, and therefore the Navy also regularly collects CTD information -) so it is more of a precautionary measure that is conducted in pairs and sometimes in flotilla formation. As the waters get shallow, it both gets hard for the submarine and for the ASW assets.

A submarine may be able to outrun a ship sailing at sonar-operating speed, but once a typical submarine exceeds the silent speed regime, it starts to shine on any sonar receiver (even if it operates in passive mode). Also, most ASW assets have towed arrays capable of detecting torpedoes as well as submarines from longer distances than active mid-frequency sonar, in passive mode.

So a mere 11 km should never be interpreted alone, but with the effect of the towed array, flotilla formation and within game theory aspects.

So to wrap it up, a submarine always has the advantage of being undetected, but once it has revealed its probabilities of location, it has less survivability than any surface asset and is likely to be doomed (note the ASW helicopters equipped with LWTs and dipping sonars that will outrun any submarine, or can work in tandem with hull mounted mid-frequency sonar).
 

Afif

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I have little more than general knowledge of ASW and sonar technology. And I think it has more to do with game theory than technical aspects.

A submarine would rarely need to get that close to a target (in cases where it is conducting ISR or SOF missions, but not engagement), and hull-mounted sonar (which is a mid-frequency sonar and typically its range is limited by the damping effect of mid-high frequency underwater sound waves due to water properties - salinity, temperature and foreign materials that change conductivity, and therefore the Navy also regularly collects CTD information -) so it is more of a precautionary measure that is conducted in pairs and sometimes in flotilla formation. As the waters get shallow, it both gets hard for the submarine and for the ASW assets.

A submarine may be able to outrun a ship sailing at sonar-operating speed, but once a typical submarine exceeds the silent speed regime, it starts to shine on any sonar receiver (even if it operates in passive mode). Also, most ASW assets have towed arrays capable of detecting torpedoes as well as submarines from longer distances than active mid-frequency sonar, in passive mode.

So a mere 11 km should never be interpreted alone, but with the effect of the towed array, flotilla formation and within game theory aspects.

So to wrap it up, a submarine always has the advantage of being undetected, but once it has revealed its probabilities of location, it has less survivability than any surface asset and is likely to be doomed (note the ASW helicopters equipped with LWTs and dipping sonars that will outrun any submarine, or can work in tandem with hull mounted mid-frequency sonar).

Thank you. That is what I was hoping to hear. Low frequency Towed sonar is indispensable for effective ASW. If I am not mistaken HIZIR had low frequency passive array, should it be enough to listen for Submarine at a more significant distance than Mid-frequency hull mounted active sonar?

Or active low frequency emission is required hence Dufas is needed? I mean, Submarine themselves never ping.
 
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Anmdt

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Thank you. That is what I was hoping to hear. Low frequency Towed sonar is indispensable for effective ASW. If I am not mistaken HIZIR had low frequency passive array, should it be enough to listen for Submarine at a more significant distance than Mid-frequency hull mounted active sonar?

Or active low frequency emission is required hence Dufas is needed? I mean, Submarine themselves never ping.
Submarines emit low frequency noise from their wakes or propellers, or from auxiliary noise (machinery, vibration, crew walking around, HVAC units, other mechanical sources, etc.) and/or when they switch on active sonar for various reasons. So a passive array sonar would still work for detection depending on the scenario.

An active towed sonar can change depth to ping at a depth where submarines can dive - using underwater currents, high gradients in salinity/density and temperature for reflectivity and concealment*. Or a low-frequency sonar can emit high sound power at low frequencies that are less susceptible to damping by distance**, allowing targets to be picked up/detected at greater distances. So, yes, it adds another dimension to ASW, as does a variable depth sonar. Also, compared to hull-mounted sonars, towed array sonars have less interference from the ship's own noise and can be built larger due to the flexibility of space, or can be used to form multistatic configuration with one vessel.

*Depending at the conditions there exists an underwater sound channel which sound is entrapped and travels with less lossess, so VDS may opt to listen in here or the dipping sonar may opt to be here.

**These properties highly vary by the sea, season. That is another reason why Navies have a high interest in hydrograpghy, oceaonagraphy and survey vessels, or they fund scientific researches in these field, or pay great interest in them to be supported by the state.

An ASW mission currently includes;

-Detection
MTI-SAR / Surface Search Radar***
Sonobuoys + MAD
Helicopter + dipping sonar
Hull mounted sonar
Towed array (passive unit)+ Variable depth (active unit) sonar

-Engagement
LWT from MPA / Helicopter / ASW asset
VL-ASROC / Depth Chargers

These are applicable for high seas ASW. As I said, I believe it becomes complex for both sides in shallow seas and even commercial fishing - high frequency sonar can be used to hunt submarines at those conditions since the maneuverability is highly restricted.

*** Once a submarine surfaces the periscope, it is morelikely to be detected by radars of surface assets, or MTI-SAR of MPA assets than being picked out by MAD or sonars. A Submarine utilizes periscope for engagement or Intelligence missions, or near surface navigations.
 

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So, the previous report about it being already flown on Akinci is false?
 
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We are doing this for the first time. Trying to produce one of the newest and best AESA radar for the fighters. This process is so normal.
 

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
 

uçuyorum

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
You don't have to transfer all data just put the computer on Akıncı and use remote console
 

Bogeyman 

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considering the huge quantity of data that Aesa radar will generate (few hundred megabytes/min), they just can't monitor the output live or will small delay . they will probably store data on some sort huge nas on Akinci and analyse it post-flight. how effective would that be ?
the need for a test-bed plane is higher than ever.
This is entirely a data link related problem. The platform has nothing to do with it. Currently, our data link capacity is very weak.
 

Radko

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IMG_20240217_174358.jpg


IMG_20240217_174425.jpg


What's the catch with Cenk-S having considerably different stats in Eng and TR brochures?

Also Eng brochure appears to bring much more information about the performance.


Well at least it is better than Kronos Naval Grand used by FREMM's, on paper

IMG_20240217_172739.jpg
 
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