TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[adenl]

This may not be the case at all. Mr Kotil may have misused a word trying to express the size of the engines to be used - however unlikely!

??

 

[Yasar_TR]

??

Well! It is not very likely that Mr Kotil has used a wrong word. I have not come across it till now. But;
He may have tried to say :
1: The new engine is bigger than 2 f16 engines,
2: The new engine is as powerful as 2 F16 engines put together,
3: The 2 new engines are bigger/more powerfulthan 2 f16 engines,
4: The new engine is so big that it is bigger than 2 f16 engines.


The 3rd option is more realistic. If we are trying to produce a new engine with the design characteristics like a f110GE132 , it is going to be more powerful than the current f16 engines. Also with our design it can be bigger in size as well!

 

[adenl]

Well! It is not very likely that Mr Kotil has used a wrong word. I have not come across it till now. But;
He may have tried to say :
1: The new engine is bigger than 2 f16 engines,
2: The new engine is as powerful as 2 F16 engines put together,
3: The 2 new engines are bigger/more powerfulthan 2 f16 engines,
4: The new engine is so big that it is bigger than 2 f16 engines.


The 3rd option is more realistic. If we are trying to produce a new engine with the design characteristics like a f110GE132 , it is going to be more powerful than the current f16 engines. Also with our design it can be bigger in size as well!

Indeed. And if @Zaferis right about the 20% loss in material from the 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium, then the TF-X engine is going to be anywhere between 125-130cm in diameter and 5.5-5.7 meters in length. The size of the sheet is used by Kotil as an example as they won't use pressed sheets but 3d printing.

For comparison, the F135 engine is 117cm max diameter with a length of 559 cm according to wikipedia, and the F119 is 120cm in max diameter and 516 cm in length. It could very well be that the TF-X engine is going to be anywhere in between the two, performance wise.

 

[Nutuk]

Did anyone understand the talk about 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium? What exactly is it used for?

As far as I know about thermodynamics supersonic aircraft flying faster than MACH 1.5 use titanium in their skin because frictional heating effects soften traditional aluminium alloys. The US SR71 blackbird that could fly MAC 3.5 used titanium in many parts of the aircraft body as "stiffener" as titanium remains unaffected until MACH 4 - 5.

So if titanium sheet is gonna be used in the airframe of the TFx, than TAI is planning a very fast flying aircraft

Kinda like F22 that can fly Mach 1.7 at supercruise

all other aircraft like EF2000 and Rafale fly below MACH 1.5 at super cruise

 

[AzeriTank]

Did anyone understand the talk about 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium? What exactly is it used for?

As far as I know about thermodynamics supersonic aircraft flying faster than MACH 1.5 use titanium in their skin because frictional heating effects soften traditional aluminium alloys. The US SR71 blackbird that could fly MAC 3.5 used titanium in many parts of the aircraft body as "stiffener" as titanium remains unaffected until MACH 4 - 5.

So if titanium sheet is gonna be used in the airframe of the TFx, than TAI is planning a very fast flying aircraft

Kinda like F22 that can fly Mach 1.7 at supercruise

all other aircraft like EF2000 and Rafale fly below MACH 1.5 at super cruise

they might also need it for Goksungur which might be over 1.5 mach to have a test bed for TFX

 

[Era_shield]

Well! It is not very likely that Mr Kotil has used a wrong word. I have not come across it till now. But;
He may have tried to say :
1: The new engine is bigger than 2 f16 engines,
2: The new engine is as powerful as 2 F16 engines put together,
3: The 2 new engines are bigger/more powerfulthan 2 f16 engines,
4: The new engine is so big that it is bigger than 2 f16 engines.


The 3rd option is more realistic. If we are trying to produce a new engine with the design characteristics like a f110GE132 , it is going to be more powerful than the current f16 engines. Also with our design it can be bigger in size as well!

Wasn't there an announcement a while ago that the TF-X will use engines with around 27,000lbf thrust? Everyone assumed this meant thrust with afterburner, but if what Mr Kotil said isn't a mistake they really meant ~27,000lbf dry thrust, which is twice the F-16's engines'. The only comparable fighter jet in the sky would be the F-22. To me this sounds unrealistic but I don't see any other sensible interpretation of what Mr Kotil said.

@Zafer does this make any sense to you? Does it even make sense to roll out the first prototypes with engines with half the output of the production engines?

 

[Nutuk]

Wasn't there an announcement a while ago that the TF-X will use engines with around 27,000lbf thrust? Everyone assumed this meant thrust with afterburner, but if what Mr Kotil said isn't a mistake they really meant ~27,000lbf dry thrust, which is twice the F-16's engines'. The only comparable fighter jet in the sky would be the F-22. To me this sounds unrealistic but I don't see any other sensible interpretation of what Mr Kotil said.

@Zafer does this make any sense to you? Does it even make sense to roll out the first prototypes with engines with half the output of the production engines?

Firstly on your question, yes it will make sense to go with the prototypes with engines that have less power.

Idea of the TFx is to have a fighter jet that can fly super cruise (for flying continuous super cruise you need very powerful engine), with less powerful engines there won't be a super cruise (without the afterburners). So for testing also less powerful engines would suffice cause you can still go super cruise (for a limited time) with the afterburners (takes a lot of fuel but at least you can test the aircraft).

Back to Temel Kotil I've listened to what he exactly said, he says the TFx (MMU) will use a lot of titanium in the aircraft, one of those parts is a 5x7m titanium banket in which the engine lies (again titanium is needed for the high temperatures there)

 

[Zafer]

Wasn't there an announcement a while ago that the TF-X will use engines with around 27,000lbf thrust? Everyone assumed this meant thrust with afterburner, but if what Mr Kotil said isn't a mistake they really meant ~27,000lbf dry thrust, which is twice the F-16's engines'. The only comparable fighter jet in the sky would be the F-22. To me this sounds unrealistic but I don't see any other sensible interpretation of what Mr Kotil said.

@Zafer does this make any sense to you? Does it even make sense to roll out the first prototypes with engines with half the output of the production engines?

You can only test with what you have access to. The engines will do the job for when the plane is not fully loaded. Like without the weapons load and the full fuel load. Near the dry weight of the plane which is usually around half the take off weight.

5x7m is a round number. This sheet of titanium may not be used in whole, it may just be the dimensions the suppliers supplies the sheet in, yet again one would expect such expensive supplies to be made by exact requirement. We never know this part of the data, we can only assume. Going from there my calculation is a rough calculation considering how much material may be lost to shaping the shroud to a ticker form by rolling and pressing it to a crinkled form. I didn't think actually it would be made this way from a sheet but I had recently seen the making of space rocket shrouds from such large piece of metal into 5.4m diameter rolls (United Space Alliance).
Still my guess of losing 20% to this process is a rough guess and gives the number 500*(80/100)/Pi =~127cm in diameter and 560cm in length. These numbers match the dimensions of other similar engines. But they may be just coincidence. So no insider info here but a rough guesstimate.

 

[adenl]

Did anyone understand the talk about 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium? What exactly is it used for?

As far as I know about thermodynamics supersonic aircraft flying faster than MACH 1.5 use titanium in their skin because frictional heating effects soften traditional aluminium alloys. The US SR71 blackbird that could fly MAC 3.5 used titanium in many parts of the aircraft body as "stiffener" as titanium remains unaffected until MACH 4 - 5.

So if titanium sheet is gonna be used in the airframe of the TFx, than TAI is planning a very fast flying aircraft

Kinda like F22 that can fly Mach 1.7 at supercruise

all other aircraft like EF2000 and Rafale fly below MACH 1.5 at super cruise

Wasn't the size of the titanium sheet spoken about in relation to the engines in particular? I can guess the titanium sheet is used for the engine outer casing. In Turkeys case they will use 3d printing instead of pressing.

 

[Anmdt]

Wasn't the size of the titanium sheet spoken about in relation to the engines in particular? I can guess the titanium sheet is used for the engine outer casing. In Turkeys case they will use 3d printing instead of pressing.

I even wonder if there is any manufacturer of that particular titanium alloy which can manufacture the sheet up to 5x7 meters with a given tolerance.
3D printing is a better way to go, but also requires more technical and theoretical background.

 

[Turko]

Did anyone understand the talk about 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium? What exactly is it used for?

As far as I know about thermodynamics supersonic aircraft flying faster than MACH 1.5 use titanium in their skin because frictional heating effects soften traditional aluminium alloys. The US SR71 blackbird that could fly MAC 3.5 used titanium in many parts of the aircraft body as "stiffener" as titanium remains unaffected until MACH 4 - 5.

So if titanium sheet is gonna be used in the airframe of the TFx, than TAI is planning a very fast flying aircraft

Kinda like F22 that can fly Mach 1.7 at supercruise

all other aircraft like EF2000 and Rafale fly below MACH 1.5 at super cruise

Like the MiG-25, Mig31 flight surfaces are built primarily of nickel-steel alloy, enabling the aircraft to tolerate kinetic heating at airspeeds approaching Mach 3. The MiG-31 airframe comprises 49% arc-welded nickel steel, 33% light metal alloy, 16% titanium and 2% composites.[30]

 

[adenl]

I even wonder if there is any manufacturer of that particular titanium alloy which can manufacture the sheet up to 5x7 meters with a given tolerance.
3D printing is a better way to go, but also requires more technical and theoretical background.

According to mr. Kotil only a couple countries have the ability to do that and they refuse to supply Turkey with these machines. Hence the 3d printing.

 

[Bogeyman]

Arda Mevlütoğlu (@orko_8) was talking about the importance of shape memory materials here. I came across a technique that the Russians developed with a 4D printer. Usually everyone mentions that the Russians are not able to develop technology. It is important to see examples from the field.

4D manufacturing of intermetallic SMA fabricated by SLM process

4D manufacturing of intermetallic SMA fabricated by SLM process

In the present report, we demonstrate how Selective laser melting (SLM) process can contribute to a 4D manufacturing of functional and structural properties of shape memory alloys (SMAs) in-situ synthesized into Ni-Ti and Cu-Al-Ni powdered systems. Correlations of specific resistance and phase...

www.spiedigitallibrary.org

Igor Shishkovsky academic profile

Igor Shishkovsky (Игорь Шишковский)

Principal Researcher, Russian Academy of Sciences - Cited by 4,256 - 4D printing - Biofabrication - Additive manufacturing - Smart Materials

scholar.google.com

Another address for those who want to download and review the study (I gave the other one for you to see other technologies developed by the Russians)

(PDF) 4D manufacturing of intermetallic SMA fabricated by SLM process

PDF | On Feb 26, 2018, Igor V. Shishkovsky and others published 4D manufacturing of intermetallic SMA fabricated by SLM process | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

While the issue of using titanium alloys in warplanes is raised, it is necessary to remember Russia's work on shape memory material development. The Russians had moved beyond 3D printers to use 4D printers.

 

[Nilgiri]

Did anyone understand the talk about 5 by 7 meter sheet of titanium? What exactly is it used for?

As far as I know about thermodynamics supersonic aircraft flying faster than MACH 1.5 use titanium in their skin because frictional heating effects soften traditional aluminium alloys. The US SR71 blackbird that could fly MAC 3.5 used titanium in many parts of the aircraft body as "stiffener" as titanium remains unaffected until MACH 4 - 5.

So if titanium sheet is gonna be used in the airframe of the TFx, than TAI is planning a very fast flying aircraft

Kinda like F22 that can fly Mach 1.7 at supercruise

all other aircraft like EF2000 and Rafale fly below MACH 1.5 at super cruise

Any number of reasons why titanium sheet metal is acquired. It would need further discussion from the people involved.

Would be handy to know what is Turkey's current fabrication level and understanding of composites....as titanium is far superior when used with those (corrosion resistance at high temp. and high stress) in certain hybrids ....compared to say Aluminium.

For the engine itself, there are numerous applications anywhere, we would need some indication of what the next fabrication step is to take a better guess.

Also which video/article are we referring to here? I didn't watch them so I am just going by your text.

 

[adenl]

Any number of reasons why titanium sheet metal is acquired. It would need further discussion from the people involved.

Would be handy to know what is Turkey's current fabrication level and understanding of composites....as titanium is far superior when used with those (corrosion resistance at high temp. and high stress) in certain hybrids ....compared to say Aluminium.

For the engine itself, there are numerous applications anywhere, we would need some indication of what the next fabrication step is to take a better guess.

Also which video/article are we referring to here? I didn't watch them so I am just going by your text.

It is this article wherein the titanium use is mentioned: https://www.milliyet.com.tr/ekonomi/temel-kotil-neyin-nasil-yapildigini-bilmemiz-gerekiyor-6389845

"Kotil, importing that the Turks innovation to make life style, "We want to overcome ourselves as a company in Turkey. TAI, you have to overcome yourself. We're doing the fifth generation fighter aircraft. 2023 to run the engine on 18 March. Coming as told by story. We are with innovation it .This plane has an engine bigger than two F16 engines. For this we use a lot of titanium. For this we need to press a titanium part of five meters by seven meters. A few countries in the world have this press but they do not press it to us. We will do it with a 3D printer, under vacuum. We didn't come up with a new invention. We are currently buying 3D printer titanium technology. What we have no chance to do is need innovation. Without innovation, we cannot go this way. " He spoke in the form."

 

[AzeriTank]

While the issue of using titanium alloys in warplanes is raised, it is necessary to remember Russia's work on shape memory material development. The Russians had moved beyond 3D printers to use 4D printers.

dont even trust Russians, i know their language, know everything within Russia, they are still in 1990s technology... dont expect a single innovation from them... all the universities are full of bribes.. they need to change putin to have an opportunity to change. otherwise they got no chance,, they cannot even make 3d technology, Trust me... all their technologies are USSR technology..

 

[chngr]

Any number of reasons why titanium sheet metal is acquired. It would need further discussion from the people involved.

Would be handy to know what is Turkey's current fabrication level and understanding of composites....as titanium is far superior when used with those (corrosion resistance at high temp. and high stress) in certain hybrids ....compared to say Aluminium.

For the engine itself, there are numerous applications anywhere, we would need some indication of what the next fabrication step is to take a better guess.

Also which video/article are we referring to here? I didn't watch them so I am just going by your text.

 

[adenl]

Please provide translation. It seems a very interesting part he is talking about.

 

[neosinan]

According to mr. Kotil only a couple countries have the ability to do that and they refuse to supply Turkey with these machines. Hence the 3d printing.

Every developed Nation has only a couple of such machines it is only reserved for most important Aerospace/military projects And Rest of the Local Companies are lucky if They can get in the line to wait a couple years for a couple hour of Stamping in Such machines.

I am partially disapponted by This decision, Varies Turkish Industries needs heavy press, 1 or 2 such Stamping machine would give our local companies access to high technology Comparable to no other. This decision will not only limit TFX ablities (unless they take real rabbit out of hat) but Also Limit All of our AeroSpace project in the long term.

US developed Heavy press program in 1950s, Since then Every Developed country bought or developed one. Basicly Every Single US figher jet until recenlty had a couple component from these same machines built in the 50s, Idk If F35 or F22 has components from these machines as well. Ukraine has know-how to help us in this fied and We have companies that develops and heavy presses but not to such scale, Imho Developing our own Heavy press program would be actual crowning jewl of the TFX project. So I am partially disapponted by This decision.

The world's largest hydraulic presses | Gasparini Industries

Discover the history of these metal giants, from Hitler, magnesium and the Cold War to the present day.

www.gasparini.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Press_Program

1950s Documentary about US heavy press program and its origins;

Edit; I find out the answer to question I asked It turns out They do indeed are used for F35 program as well [1]

1 - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/03/iron-giant/308886/

 

[mulj]

None will give you presses of that capabilities, those are national assets, you need to make one by yourself.