TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Raptor]

According to the schedule, TFX is currently in preliminary design stage
View attachment 8820

Is it decided yet that when design would be finalized and metal-cutting would start?

 

[Nilgiri]

I need to make do with a (pair) turboshaft and some fans.

Issue is fans and rotors are good at moving large volumes of air slowly to generate the thrust. But that is not what a high performance fighter is going to be after, the are stuck with medium bypass at most given the significant incident velocities they have to face (thus needing some portion of the flow at the exhaust to be higher than that for there to be basic propulsion envelope).

Then you constrain yourself with turboshaft too, I assume separating from the fan package, its going to not give you the power to weight you need for the dynamics past the lift itself. Just look at the regimes of aircraft speed turboshafts and turboprops are optimised for.

I agree with regard to the Harrier not being viable and it's too slow etc., but I just wanted to point to the part in the video where the design of F35 and patented design "fan behind the fuselage" was the perfect solution for the desired stability along with super sonic speed (timestamp 12:00)

YAK-141 1,7 M speed (LM F35B ToT) So in reality F35 engine is (based on) Soviet tech, I do not think anyone need to rediscover the wheel, they/we can just make prototypes to test out the solutions and work on improving it from there.

Well, Yak38/141 were direct lift jets. LM was certainly interested in certain aspects of this (like the conduit flow to wings, tail and nose etc for stability + trim options)...but the placement itself (near cockpit) was not an unknown concept in west:

Ryan XV-5 Vertifan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Lockheed XV-4 Hummingbird - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the Soviets went right to the chase (no mucking about) whatever the weight penalty of direct lift jet there. Remember these have to be lugged around (doing nothing) during normal flight, affecting the mass left for other parts of aircraft, mission capability and performance envelope etc.

F-35 is more elegant and efficient solution (with regards to weight % in empty weight for the lift system) in that you go for a lift fan and just run that off a drive shaft from the main engine....rather than have complete separate lift-only engines which are far heavier in the end for the aircraft.

 

[Zafer]

Issue is fans and rotors are good at moving large volumes of air slowly to generate the thrust. But that is not what a high performance fighter is going to be after, the are stuck with medium bypass at most given the significant incident velocities they have to face (thus needing some portion of the flow at the exhaust to be higher than that for there to be basic propulsion envelope).

Then you constrain yourself with turboshaft too, I assume separating from the fan package, its going to not give you the power to weight you need for the dynamics past the lift itself. Just look at the regimes of aircraft speed turboshafts and turboprops are optimised for.

Turboprops are good for speeds up to 725 kmh which is the ballpark I am looking at.
The reason why I want to use turboshafts is that they are available. Ideally you want some hot gas jet for higher performance but you need a custom engine for that. So, my design is not on par with F35B and Harrier but comes right after them for speed and endurance. If it is made unmanned it can have a good punch, more agile than any helicopter. Even a civilian version is possible making it the most usable private carriage.

 

[Nilgiri]

Turboprops are good for speeds up to 725 kmh which is the ballpark I am looking at.
The reason I want to use turboshafts is that they are available. Ideally you want some hot gas jet for higher performance but you need a custom engine for that. So, my design is not on par with F35B and Harrier but comes right after them for speed and endurance. If it is made unmanned it can have a good punch, more agile than any helicopter. Even a civilian version is possible making it the most usable private carriage.

Interesting, are you working on drawing up your concept right now? Will be interesting to see (I'll give more analysis then once things fleshed out).

Right now I'm visualising something like a V-22 osprey, but maybe fan-ring based rather than rotor based...though maybe rotor would be an easier design. You can definitely move to more performance base given huge deal of V-22 (why tilt-rotor etc was picked in first place) was its hover loiter requirement that you can forego (just like VTOL fighter aircraft do) as you simply adjust your requirements w.r.t lift time vs mission time appropriately.

 

[Skyfall]

Why don't they use a separate vehicle for launch to carry the aircraft into the air using helicopter like rotors and then drop the aircraft which will use its own trust after it has been released.
Landing would have to be conventional though.

Or even launching aircraft like space rockets using first stage rocket systems.

The Turks must have their own version of Elon Musk somewhere who can think outside of the box and bring serious innovation to the field.

TAI if you are listening in, I am available for hire and have even more crazier ideas

 

[Zafer]

Interesting, are you working on drawing up your concept right now? Will be interesting to see (I'll give more analysis then once things fleshed out).

Right now I'm visualising something like a V-22 osprey, but maybe fan-ring based rather than rotor based...though maybe rotor would be an easier design. You can definitely move to more performance base given huge deal of V-22 (why tilt-rotor etc was picked in first place) was its hover loiter requirement that you can forego (just like VTOL fighter aircraft do) as you simply adjust your requirements w.r.t lift time vs mission time appropriately.

The plane will look like a regular plane for the most part, nothing fancy on it, not even arrangements on the wings like the F35B. It will have features of a plane with similar speed.

Karem Aircraft's Butterfly made an appearance the other day, by the way, making it the first rpm controlled Osprey family quad, fully built.

 

[Stimpy75]

this is from Convair from the 70th

 

[Turko]

For lifting using engine causes overheating and fuel consumption problems. That's why F35 used lifting fan powered from engine.

Look how harrier pushes with hot exhaust .

The harrier pilots must land or take off vertically in 90 seconds due to over heating danger.

 

[Stimpy75]

then the best way to go is the model from Ryan

 

[Turko]

then the best way to go is the model from Ryan

What's wrong with F35 lifting fan? Why reinventing wheel ? We could just copy reliable operational f35b platform.

 

[Zafer]

Here is the link to the famous VTOL "wheel of fortune" (çarkıfelek) that includes 45 designs studied so far.
Please note that electric propulsion models are not included on this display, images are links to detais.

VTOL Wheel of Fortune

 

[Stimpy75]

to build an equivalent to the F35 lifiting fan....that's too ambitious for us....while the liftvan could be possible...of course the F35 engine would be better...ama şimdi abartmıyalım

 

[Nilgiri]

The plane will look like a regular plane for the most part, nothing fancy on it, not even arrangements on the wings like the F35B. It will have features of a plane with similar speed.

Karem Aircraft's Butterfly made an appearance the other day, by the way, making it the first rpm controlled Osprey family quad, fully built.

Hmmm, interesting. I will have to see your layout etc to comment more, so I will wait.

If everything is conventional arrangement I don't see point of doing turboshaft + fan (i.e create some split from the rpm and thrust vector with transmission + losses you have to then account for) or by this do you mean you creating an adhoc turbofan from say a turboshaft that Turkey already makes?

Those arrangements on the (F-35) wing are very important btw, every VTOL system cannot rely on just the main lift thrust vectors (with say a conventional arrangement)....they need to harness max moment arms for small correcting inputs for stability.

 

[Zafer]

Hmmm, interesting. I will have to see your layout etc to comment more, so I will wait.

If everything is conventional arrangement I don't see point of doing turboshaft + fan (i.e create some split from the rpm and thrust vector with transmission + losses you have to then account for) or by this do you mean you creating an adhoc turbofan from say a turboshaft that Turkey already makes?

Those arrangements on the (F-35) wing are very important btw, every VTOL system cannot rely on just the main lift thrust vectors (with say a conventional arrangement)....they need to harness max moment arms for small correcting inputs for stability.

Yes, it is kind of making an adhoc turbofan but you get to place the fans where you want them and you get to choose from a wide selection of engines including possibly piston ones with some stretch. So it can come in many sizes. F35B wing nozzles are necessary but not in my case. The design is not very similar to any known VTOL configuration so I will have to keep details to myself until I sell it. And truthfully there will be some experimentation to make to make sure it will work well. Other parts of the plane like wings don't have VTOL propulsion related specific parts so anything goes with them.

It will be a low power system to employ as a weapons platform but it will be rather easy to make. And it will have room for improvement if it can prove itself and earn its own custom engine.

But it is not on top of my agenda. On my agenda there is the $30k budget simplest helicopter ever that is looking for investors. This part goes to the casual discussion section. LOL.

 

[Saithan]

Weren't we also building the main body (center piece) of F35. Thus we should have enough knowhow to work on a testbed for VSTOL fighter jet.

Like I said, no need to reinvent the wheel, rebuilding something is also a learning process.

 

[Zafer]

View attachment 8929

Weren't we also building the main body (center piece) of F35. Thus we should have enough knowhow to work on a testbed for VSTOL fighter jet.

Like I said, no need to reinvent the wheel, rebuilding something is also a learning process.

We make the empty shell with a big hole in it if we are making the part for F35B.

You will probably see that some of the best tech are already patented or not worthwhile to work on as it will be too expensive to do so. China stopped working on it several times in the past and their current efforts are not known to anyone at all.

And don't forget the entire vertical lift fan and ancillaries are only used during take off and landing and are a dead weight throughout the rest of the flight. How can that be the best way.

Also the entire propulsion with the engine and fan and the wingtip jets is a tall order to copy and not worth the effort for Turkey. We can only go for cheaper solutions as we have many other bases to cover and a carrier borne VTOL is the least of our worries.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1339838770418495488

Mr. Hulusi AKAR: We look at it from a wide perspective. All options are considered. (Su-35/57)

 

[Timur]

Mr. Hulusi AKAR: We look at it from a wide perspective. All options are considered. (Su-35/57)

su 35 makes no sense
too old
too large
not enough against current threats of Eurofighter F35 and F22

su 57 will come again with more irrational sanctions..
su 57 makes only sence with turkish radar and avionics/Ew systems for that it would be very late today

 

[what]

I think he's bluffing and intentionally ambiguous. Like they would risk another round of harder sanctions. Especially with Biden.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I think he's bluffing and intentionally ambiguous. Like they would risk another round of harder sanctions. Especially with Biden.

I would take whatever that guy says with a pinch of salt. He kept saying “we were partners in F35 production and the deliveries are going on as planned“.
Then we got kicked out of the F35 program. Not even worth mentioning!