TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[TsumugiShirogane]

Previously we did somewhat detailed examination of F-35's RCS based on available data. We tried to figure out how SIPER would hold up against a F-35.
(ERIS has a detection range of 470km against targets with 1m RCS)



Here is the main article.

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

TOYGUN is not similar to EOTS.

It has a range of 35km, and F-35's old EOTS (Not block-4) has range in excess of 45 miles.

You see TOYGUN is a FLIR only.
While EOTS combines both FLIR and IRST in one.

However, that is why for A2A applications TFX has independent KARAT IRST.



True. (But it would be interested to see if they can pull off the desired result within current budget)



More or less I agree. However, if your concerns is Greece then I have to say, they are unlikely to risk their limited numbers of F-35s against TurAF in short brust of tactical skirmishes.

I read your analysis on F-35 RCS and EIRS detection range, and I agree with your sentiment. F-35 has rendered all SAM systems virtually obsolete, it's simply just too late for these systems to detect it before it's well into its standoff missile range. Only platform to challenge it, is going to be other supersonic aircraft. There is no other way. And unless the said aircraft is technologically on par with it, it will be as if that aircraft doesn't exist. That's why I've been going on and on about the budget issue.
As for your statement about how it would be "interesting" to see it done with less than ideal budget, I'd rather say "catastrophic". Enemy stealth fighters don't care about your jingoist "oh it's cheap but it'll get the job done, sure it's crap compared to F-35 but it's ours!". An inferior fighter will be detected and shot out of the sky before it even knows what happened to it, and it will be as if it wasn't produced at all. And then the superior fighter, with greater budget, will continue on to strike all your assets with IMPUNITY, causing hundreds of billions of dollars of damage that you thought you saved up by cheaping out on your stealth fighter. All your tanks, helicopters, turboprop drones, surface vessels etc. will be sitting ducks.
This is why the KAAN project is the single most important project there is, alongside it's BVRAAM missiles. Gökdoğan's range is insufficient compared to Meteor and must be addressed as well.
The idea that our products are cheaper but inferior to US counterparts may work for A2G drones, Hurjet, helicopters, tanks and so on and so forth for their export potential yada yada, but not with this.
If our TOYGUN/KARAT has inferior range compared to the AN/AAQ-40, and the engines IR signature worse to F135, it cannot be shrugged off like oh well whatever. These issues must be, and can only be solved by ample investment into the project. Until our solutions are on par with these. No other way.

KAAN will have a comparable frontal RCS to F-22. I can't disclose the details but we are at a very good point in both RAM paint, RAM coating, and auxiliary items like RAM putty. The geometry of the aircraft and production quality already speaks for itself.

No classified info obviously, this isn't the War Thunder forums haha.. But if we need to make sure it can stand its ground against the most advanced airframe in history we need to make sure it's developed up to the task, quality is the primary factor we have to aim for not the export potential. We can't make do with simply "decent" solutions like JF-17 here.

 

[TheInsider]

I read your analysis on F-35 RCS and EIRS detection range, and I agree with your sentiment. F-35 has rendered all SAM systems virtually obsolete, it's simply just too late for these systems to detect it before it's well into its standoff missile range. Only platform to challenge it, is going to be other supersonic aircraft. There is no other way. And unless the said aircraft is technologically on par with it, it will be as if that aircraft doesn't exist. That's why I've been going on and on about the budget issue.
As for your statement about how it would be "interesting" to see it done with less than ideal budget, I'd rather say "catastrophic". Enemy stealth fighters don't care about your jingoist "oh it's cheap but it'll get the job done, sure it's crap compared to F-35 but it's ours!". An inferior fighter will be detected and shot out of the sky before it even knows what happened to it, and it will be as if it wasn't produced at all. And then the superior fighter, with greater budget, will continue on to strike all your assets with IMPUNITY, causing hundreds of billions of dollars of damage that you thought you saved up by cheaping out on your stealth fighter. All your tanks, helicopters, turboprop drones, surface vessels etc. will be sitting ducks.
This is why the KAAN project is the single most important project there is, alongside it's BVRAAM missiles. Gökdoğan's range is insufficient compared to Meteor and must be addressed as well.
The idea that our products are cheaper but inferior to US counterparts may work for A2G drones, Hurjet, helicopters, tanks and so on and so forth for their export potential yada yada, but not with this.
If our TOYGUN/KARAT has inferior range compared to the AN/AAQ-40, and the engines IR signature worse to F135, it cannot be shrugged off like oh well whatever. These issues must be, and can only be solved by ample investment into the project. Until our solutions are on par with these. No other way.

No classified info obviously, this isn't the War Thunder forums haha.. But if we need to make sure it can stand its ground against the most advanced airframe in history we need to make sure it's developed up to the task, quality is the primary factor we have to aim for not the export potential. We can't make do with simply "decent" solutions like JF-17 here.

If you read some scientific papers released by known Turkish scientists who work in this field and follow earlier projects like the Maske series of projects, Aselsans studies, and Turkish institutes working on the matter you can deduce a good picture. We are giving a lot of clues to intelligence assets some of which are I think unhealthy to discuss here.

 

[YeşilVatan]

If you read some scientific papers released by known Turkish scientists who work in this field and follow earlier projects like the Maske series of projects, Aselsans studies, and Turkish institutes working on the matter you can deduce a good picture. We are giving a lot of clues to intelligence assets some of which are I think unhealthy to discuss here.

Can we say that countermeasures for F-35 are in the works? Because if Greeks thought for a second that they can dominate airspace, they would attack without hesitation, westerners would fabricate excuses and cheer them on. I would like to believe that our people are working towards a solid countermeasure other than destroying airfields.

 

[Huelague]

I think if KAAN finds large export orders the production date should be increased to 3 or 4 per months in order to not have long lead times

T. Kotil said it can be easy rate up to 4 jets per month.

 

[Rodeo]

T. Kotil said it can be easy rate up to 4 jets per month.

That means doubling the production rate of every subcomponent of the aircraft. So there are many companies involved.

On a related note, why can't we produce GÖKBEY in any meaningful number, what's the obstacle?

 

[Ahlatshah]

Can we say that countermeasures for F-35 are in the works? Because if Greeks thought for a second that they can dominate airspace, they would attack without hesitation, westerners would fabricate excuses and cheer them on. I would like to believe that our people are working towards a solid countermeasure other than destroying airfields.

Even today Greek AF has capacity to sudden and deadly attack if they dare to strike first, let alone with F35. But there is a big question, then what will happen next? War is not such a thing like stone vs stone. There are countless variables. What will happen their precious islands and infrastructure, their navy and airports? I am not saying F35 is not a threat obviously, but they are not coming until 2028 and if you must compare Air forces in 2028 (stone vs stone) nonetheless, please get our secondary Airforce (I mean UCAVs) into account. Because in 5 years UCAVs, particularly Kızılelma and Anka3 have potential to change the whole game

 

[Heartbang]

However, if your concern is Greece then I have to say, they are unlikely to risk their limited numbers of F-35s against TurAF in short brust of tactical skirmishes.

That's where you're wrong.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

I guess that all their Airbases would be hit with turkish SRBMs and bombed back to stone age. TSK has very likely a lot SRBMs by now.
But that is not the topic of this thread.

- Even with Ballistic missile its hard work because greece have 40 civil airbase and some 10 airforce ones .
If we take into account 20 missiles to take down 1 airbase if greece use total 30 airbases that mean it needs 600 pinpoint missiles that Turkiye have them no problem, but airbases runways can be repaired for just few days So Turkiye needs every week to use 400 missiles to destroy airfileds and greek airplanes will be impossible to function .
From all those attacks more than half of greek airplanes will aslo destroyed .
So even if Greek attacks first and destroy half of Turkish airforce , Turkiye can hit back and do the same if have 10k ballistic missiles .
The war is complex and other weapons can play their role like steth Anka 3 ,kizilelma or Koral EW

 

[Heartbang]

- Even with Ballistic missile its hard work because greece have 40 civil airbase and some 10 airforce ones .
If we take into account 20 missiles to take down 1 airbase if greece use total 30 airbases that mean it needs 600 pinpoint missiles that Turkiye have them no problem, but airbases runways can be repaired for just few days So Turkiye needs every week to use 400 missiles to destroy airfileds and greek airplanes will be impossible to function .
From all those attacks more than half of greek airplanes will aslo destroyed .
So even if Greek attacks first and destroy half of Turkish airforce , Turkiye can hit back and do the same if have 10k ballistic missiles .
The war is complex and other weapons can play their role like steth Anka 3 ,kizilelma or Koral EW

You don't have to constantly bomb runways. You take out the runways 1st, and then you destroy the aircraft.
After that point, who gives a flying f*ck about runways?

 

[YeşilVatan]

Even today Greek AF has capacity to sudden and deadly attack if they dare to strike first, let alone with F35. But there is a big question, then what will happen next? War is not such a thing like stone vs stone. There are countless variables. What will happen their precious islands and infrastructure, their navy and airports? I am not saying F35 is not a threat obviously, but they are not coming until 2028 and if you must compare Air forces in 2028 (stone vs stone) nonetheless, please get our secondary Airforce (I mean UCAVs) into account. Because in 5 years UCAVs, particularly Kızılelma and Anka3 have potential to change the whole game

I understand your point, but thinking Greeks are rational actors would be a false assumption. Now we have such bad relations, think of how worse it will get after the coming economic crisis and refugee situation that will be way worse. And we will search for gas in the Mediterranean.

If they get a 'signal' from the west and they believe they can do a successful preemptive strike, they would never wait one second. Their assessment of the situation, however, may be wrong. That's why we have to establish clear military superiority, if not outright dominance. Because regardless of the shortcomings of Turkey, we are the saner one.

 

[Ryder]

Turkiye needs to strike the important places like powerlines, roads, airports and military bases.

If you use all those weapons for terror like striking cities or civilian populations.

Thats just a waste we seen this many times like the Nazis who wasted their resources in using their weapons and airforce for terror bombing.

Russians doing the same in Ukraine. Russians constantly used terror bombings to pummel the country into submission because if you are striking killing their countryman this could lead to surrender as morale plummets. It also has the reverse if the military from soldiers, infantstructure and logistics is still intact.

Turks have always been pinpoint and are utilising their own strategies and tactics.

When you build your own stuff it gives you time to test and experiment.

Turkiye has cut down so many pkk and isis heads without engaging in stupid wasteful terror bombings of towns, villages or cities.

Its always pin point. You seen with Azerbaijan who constantly wasted the Armenian military without wasting their time on bombing empty villages like the Russians do in Syria.

 

[Yasar_TR]

SRBM damage on runways can be easily repaired. Multiple Cruise missile bomb damage did not take out Syrian air strip out of action for long. Even specially built runway bombs like BLU-107 Durandal which lands on runways in clusters and destroys it in multiple places can be repaired.
Greece has 6 squadrons of Patriot batteries that can intercept some ballistic missiles. We may have to sacrifice some of our old Yildirim class BMs to exhaust dry their missile stocks before we can start inflicting damage. Don’t underestimate the S300 in Crete either. Albeit our Bayraktars and loitering munitions will probably make mince meat out of that AD system.
Their Scalp missiles will inflict heavy damage on our infra structure. Especially our bridges and refineries are within their reach.
Until we have an iron dome system of our own we are susceptible to air and cruise missile attacks. (Even Israeli Iron Dome gives only 95% coverage)
War is nasty. It will be costly to both sides. The trick is to let them know they will suffer a great deal more than us. This is a good deterrent. Let them know that they will lose a great deal more than us.

 

[Heartbang]

Don’t underestimate the S300 in Crete either.

They sent those to Ukraine.

SRBM damage on runways can be easily repaired. Multiple Cruise missile bomb damage did not take out Syrian air strip out of action for long. Even specially built runway bombs like BLU-107 Durandal which lands on runways in clusters and destroys it in multiple places can be repaired.

That was my point TBH. You don't hunt the runways forever. You take down the runways, and immediately go after the airplane hangars while they are busy fixing those. If done correctly, those runways would have no planes to facilitate any take-offs. Mission accomplished.

Their Scalp missiles will inflict heavy damage on our infra structure.

No runways no planes no SCALP.

 

[Radko]

Previously we did somewhat detailed examination of F-35's RCS based on available data. We tried to figure out how SIPER would hold up against a F-35.
(ERIS has a detection range of 470km against targets with 1m RCS)



Here is the main article.

F-35A Radar scattering simulation

Introduction F-35 is the backbone of American stealth fighter fleet, it is intended to replace F-16, F-18C/D, Harrier and A-10. There are currently 3 versions of F-35 which are F-35A, F-35B and F-3…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

TOYGUN is not similar to EOTS.


You see TOYGUN is a FLIR only.
While EOTS combines both FLIR and IRST in one.

However, that is why for A2A applications TFX has independent KARAT IRST.



True. (But it would be interested to see if they can pull off the desired result within current budget)



More or less I agree. However, if your concern is Greece then I have to say, they are unlikely to risk their limited numbers of F-35s against TurAF in short brust of tactical skirmishes.

No, TOYGUN works exactly like the EOTS, they both use the same method. There is no magic in EOTS.

If you go look at Toygun advertisement you will also see that "Air to Air" is present, same for external pods too.

The reason why KARAT is a different sensor is because of diversification, working on ground and air at the same time and using LWIR so better for detecting individual heat sources

 

[Enderun]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655482691452563456

 

[Oublious]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1655482691452563456

number one pictures...

 

[GoatsMilk]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

 

[Yasar_TR]

They sent those to Ukraine.

I am afraid they did not.

Greece not to transfer S-300 systems to Ukraine, says PM Mitsotakis

Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis has said that his country will not send Russian-made S-300 anti-aircraft missile systems to Ukraine, the Greek news website eKathimerini reported on Feb. 22.

news.yahoo.com

 

[Radko]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

TR3, if it doesn't get delayed again

 

[Yasar_TR]

Just out of interest in 2028 what level of improvement do we expect to see on an F35?

Well it all depends on how quickly US can integrate some of the improvements being tested by the engine manufacturers, on to the plane.
There is going to be a new Aesa radar with GaN based TR modules. This will be accompanied by new avionics.
A new engine is in the pipeline. Although P&W is trying hard to improve current f135, there is a GE derivative of an adaptive cycle engine waiting to replace the F135 with XA100 engine which may be starting to use Ceramic Matrix Composite technologies in the manufacturing of the critical parts of the engine.
P&W have already been awarded by the US government a grant of 437million dollars to develop an adaptive cycle engine for the F35. So they are not sitting on their laurels either.
We will most likely see engine power of F35 increasing to 45000lbf levels.