TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[neosinan]

The aviation press told me.

Turkey seeks partners for TF-X fighter program amid fiscal uncertainty

The Turkish economy is experiencing high inflation, and the country’s external debt reached nearly $476 billion in March.

www.defensenews.com

PS Something that friendly countries could do is to indicate the level of orders they might place. Non-commital memoranda of understanding would be helpful.

That article is written by "Burak Ege Bekdil" He is known as pathological liar. He has no insider access or any access to even rumors. You should read about Turkish defence industry from anybody but him. Articles with no names attached have better reputation than him

 

[Siper>MMU]

I wonder how they are testing KAAN's landing gears. Until now it was equipped with temporary ones. The new "real" ones would need intensive testing before flight. F-14s landing gear test was carried by dropping the fuselage a couple times.

 

[Tornadoss]

That article is written by "Burak Ege Bekdil" He is known as pathological liar. He has no insider access or any access to even rumors. You should read about Turkish defence industry from anybody but him. Articles with no names attached have better reputation than him

He died a few days ago in a traffic accident, we will hear no more from him.

 

[Ecderha]

The aviation press told me.

Turkey seeks partners for TF-X fighter program amid fiscal uncertainty

The Turkish economy is experiencing high inflation, and the country’s external debt reached nearly $476 billion in March.

www.defensenews.com

PS Something that friendly countries could do is to indicate the level of orders they might place. Non-commital memoranda of understanding would be helpful.

I think you should start looking reliable sources for info.
About investment to KAAN it were option back 2020 not in present.

 

[Rooxbar]

I wonder how they are testing KAAN's landing gears. Until now it was equipped with temporary ones. The new "real" ones would need intensive testing before flight. F-14s landing gear test was carried by dropping the fuselage a couple times.

Temel Kotil mentions the landing gears here, apparently they aren't at that stage yet.

 

[Holikarbon]

This type of work does not depend on the economy. It depends on how much resources you allocate.

If economics were an indisputable binding rule, North Korea and Iran would not be able to take a step forward in Ballistic and Nuclear missiles.

 

[Zafer]

Can you show me one single country that managed to pull of a project like this without a robust economy, even Russians with decades long aviation legacy screwed up their 5th gen program simply because of economic/political reasons and corruption.

Its not a question of being familiar with TAI's internal policies, which you are not familiar with either btw, but about common sense and being able to connect the dots, some of you guys act like as if the project is finished and already in serial production.
Confidence is good, over-confidence is destructive...

Self relience overall is at 80% already, you can even print money to carry on national projects. By the year 2028 we expect 85% self reliance. Economic situation is not a problem for such projects.

 

[boredaf]

you can even print money to carry on national projects

While I have no doubt we can carry on the project on our own, even if at a slower rate, that is not how economy works mate. In fact, that is how economies die.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Can you show me one single country that managed to pull of a project like this without a robust economy, even Russians with decades long aviation legacy screwed up their 5th gen program simply because of economic/political reasons and corruption.

Its not a question of being familiar with TAI's internal policies, which you are not familiar with either btw, but about common sense and being able to connect the dots, some of you guys act like as if the project is finished and already in serial production.
Confidence is good, over-confidence is destructive...

Your pessimism does have valid points. But :
1. It is wrong to compare us with a country who was and is living off the inheritance of Soviets, devoid of new blood to improve.
2. It is also wrong to compare Turkiye with any other country as the logistic conditions would not be the same.
3. And finally, including myself, many people here as well, probably were very cynical about the success of TFX, until we proved to the world that we can build a supersonic jet fighter that can fly, with Hurjet; then showed a TFX that taxied.
There are still some points to prove. Apart from the engine, which is a different discussion point altogether, this plane has to fly and most importantly be stealthy enough to warrant it being called a 5th generation aircraft. (That won’t happen until the indigenous engines are fitted)

But after Hurjet, most people are more optimistic that we will manage to build a jet fighter that will be better than anything we have ever had. It being a true 5th generation, will come as a bonus later, may be in another 5 years.

Looking at what KAAN will have onboard, when fully fitted out, will make it one of the most capable 4.5 generation fighter aircrafts in the world. That is what we are aiming for now anyway.

 

[TR_123456]

Can you show me one single country that managed to pull of a project like this without a robust economy, even Russians with decades long aviation legacy screwed up their 5th gen program simply because of economic/political reasons and corruption.

Its not a question of being familiar with TAI's internal policies, which you are not familiar with either btw, but about common sense and being able to connect the dots, some of you guys act like as if the project is finished and already in serial production.
Confidence is good, over-confidence is destructive...

Finishing the TFX(KAAN,Engine) project is existential to our country,it doesnt matter even if we have 150% inflation or no economy at all.
This project is like the Pakistani nuclear bomb development,we have to finish it,no matter what.
Its not a choice.

 

[TR_123456]

Annual inflation is reported to be 61.5%. In Europe it is more like 5%. It looks like the government is spectacularly incompetent at managing the economy. Will foreign countries be put off getting involved in the KAAN project?

lets just say we have many silent partners already with loads of cash.

 

[TR_123456]

Can you show me one single country that managed to pull of a project like this without a robust economy,

Pakistani nuclear bomb.

 

[Zafer]

While I have no doubt we can carry on the project on our own, even if at a slower rate, that is not how economy works mate. In fact, that is how economies die.

When you keep every other factor constant printing money may make the economy bleed but we expect our imported energy bill to shrink going forward so we can compansate. Anyway, another member put it more briskly we will pull this off even if we starve ourselves.

 

[Bogeyman]

Can you show me one single country that managed to pull of a project like this without a robust economy, even Russians with decades long aviation legacy screwed up their 5th gen program simply because of economic/political reasons and corruption.

Its not a question of being familiar with TAI's internal policies, which you are not familiar with either btw, but about common sense and being able to connect the dots, some of you guys act like as if the project is finished and already in serial production.
Confidence is good, over-confidence is destructive...

First of all, the Russians failed their projects not only due to economic reasons but also due to their technical inadequacy.

I have more information than you about TAI's internal personnel policies, even if they are not up to date. If one of our friends here had not shamelessly shared the photo I shared on the forum (I specifically warned him) and shared it on X, that conversation would have continued.

In any case, I know better than you the staff's fights with each other, the management's view of the staff, the request for defense from the staff when the program could not be completed in the Kaan project, and the chief engineers who were dismissed from their duties in the Kaan project.

 

[Bogeyman]

Ok nice, you can discuss those with the HR department, i dont wanna claim i know anything about TAI's employment policies.
But the thing is this post doesnt negate any of the points i have been mentioning previously.

Actually it does. Because the staff complains about the technical inadequacy of the chief engineers. He is troubled by the lack of harmony within the company. He complains about the fact that experienced personnel within the company do not document in detail the progress made in the projects, step by step. This causes know-how to evaporate when they leave the company. When developing new techniques, they have to do everything from scratch. Or, when it is not clear what is being done and why at the plan-project stage, things get mixed up.

That's why, if I were you, I would worry more about the maturation of the corporate culture as soon as possible rather than money issues.

 

[Zafer]

Just a year ago we were discussing if TAI can make the main bulkhead of Kaan or not but here it is counting down for take off. And when comes the year 2028 we will have the engine and even the ejection seat made in Türkiye. Türkiye will rise with citizens that believe in its brilliant future despite those who underestimate its potential.

 

[Bogeyman]

Well, as i said, throwing money at a problem doesnt solve anything that much we agree, what i dont agree with is the statement that economic situation isnt important. economy is far more than just availability of money, it is the foundation of many things necessary in such a project.
A bad economic environment might not affect TAI directly but it will affect the supply chain and the hundreds or thousands of supplier companies which all together are necessary to mature the project. Now imagine all these companies have human ressources too which are very much affected by the said economic factors.

People here dont seem to consider the macroeconomic factors but rather think everything will be fine as long as the state can allocate enough funds.

That's exactly why those companies are driven to export. So that they can create their own budgets with their own resources. TAI exports aircraft structures worth almost $1 billion.

 

[Bogeyman]

And now we slowly get to the point of importance of economic stability. Be aware that not every company has the size or goverment security that TAI has, they need to survive in open market, and surviving there is much easier in a healthy economy than the one we see in Turkey the last decade.

If you are exporting, the opposite is actually true. Because TL is worthless. And you export with dollars or euros. You probably pay staff salaries in TL. If you pay in dollars rather than TL, then experienced engineers have another reason to choose you.

 

[Spitfire9]

And now we slowly get to the point of importance of economic stability. Be aware that not every company has the size or goverment security that TAI has, they need to survive in open market, and surviving there is much easier in a healthy economy than the one we see in Turkey the last decade.

When I drew attention to economic mismanagement (eg not dealing with inflation) I was not suggesting that the KAAN project would be cancelled. I was suggesting it would be difficult to find partners who would bring capital into the project.

Inflation is 61.5%
US$/lira exchange rate was 18.96 Turkish lira to the dollar 1 year ago. Now it costs 28.11 Turkish lira to buy a dollar.
Turkish central bank interest rate is 35%. EU rate is 4%

These numbers have significant repercussions. For example, whatever funding was set aside for KAAN will be eaten into by inflation. More funds will be required. How do suppliers price components that may take months to make if they have little idea of what it will cost to make them? If you invoice 1,000,000 lira and are paid 60 days later, that million lira has depreciated 10% in value by the time you are paid (it will buy 90% of what it would 60 days earlier).

 

[karakova]

When I drew attention to economic mismanagement (eg not dealing with inflation) I was not suggesting that the KAAN project would be cancelled. I was suggesting it would be difficult to find partners who would bring capital into the project.

Inflation is 61.5%
US$/lira exchange rate was 18.96 Turkish lira to the dollar 1 year ago. Now it costs 28.11 Turkish lira to buy a dollar.
Turkish central bank interest rate is 35%. EU rate is 4%

These numbers have significant repercussions. For example, whatever funding was set aside for KAAN will be eaten into by inflation. More funds will be required. How do suppliers price components that may take months to make if they have little idea of what it will cost to make them?

why ''it will be eaten into by inflation''....There is no such a thing