TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Baryshx

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There is an image with the foreign suppliers and @moz68k wrote the company names but those are main suppliers. There are more than 200 suppliers that weren't named in that infographic.
Are we sure GE and Martin Baker are not the main contractors? If I were GE and Martin Baker, I would be angry with Tusaş, because it is good PR for these companies. :D :sneaky:
 

blackjack

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The most enjoyable things about 5th/6th generation aircrafts is that you can enjoy what technical solutions countries come up with to solve their short comings,
 

what

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The topic of this thread is KAAN, not any other country or their developments.
Off-topic posts have been deleted, repeated offenders will suffer the consequences of their own actions.
 

Nilgiri

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Some offtopic posts (US - ROK relationship etc) have now been moved to more appropriate thread:


Please continue on that subject there.
 
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Hasanrize

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There is an image with the foreign suppliers and @moz68k wrote the company names but those are main suppliers. There are more than 200 suppliers that weren't named in that infographic.
If Petlas is main supplier because of tire, GE should be there as well since 2X F-110 is not something small or cheap.
 

Ecderha

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Are we sure GE and Martin Baker are not the main contractors? If I were GE and Martin Baker, I would be angry with Tusaş, because it is good PR for these companies. :D :sneaky:
I will give you a FACT about GE. This were said by TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt.
Back when usa started Hostile and offical Embargo which passed via senate and usa president signed, then On the next day as TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt said "there was urgent request by GE officals for a meeting with TEI and GE in Turkiye."
Main topic was that GE request that part of Money and all Assets of GE in TEI company will NOT be used without explicitly asked and allowed by GE offical in TEI.
GE explained that partnarship with TEI is one thing but usa Emabrgo is with bigger weight.


So TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt explained this on one of event where they showed T-1400 engine to the public.
Simple put GE obey usa embargo and do not want to support or do not want to associate with any Turkiye military product.
Unless Turkiye does get exception offical document from usa saying this can be used on Turkiye military project


In way which TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt presented is that how Quickly ACT and how brutally hostile usa companies are like GE.

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So as I said many, many times here in this forum. People here keep lie themself that Turkiye is NATO ally and west countries will co-operate.
Many Facts keep proving that this is NOT true.
Only talks/lies on media showing NATO that they care, but those are talks and smiles of liers.

Western attitude to Türkiye's defence ambition does NOT changed, usa embargos are still Active. Attitude is still hostile to Turkiye.
One thing changed, West are seeing that almost all military projects of Turkiye are Completing with in planed time.
Hostile PIT which mainly usa digged is still deep and there are no bridge.

Baryshx - no offend but do not lie youself. GE are not respecting TEI. They do not care about Turkiye. They care only for own GE company.
They are happy on cheap labour in Turkiye.
They are happy that TEI managemend is following contract and do not hide, steal or do some kind of own plan.
They are happy that labour became skilled and experianced, but still work as cheap as before.
They are happy that even as TEI succeed to create own products and TEI part is going bigger. TEI is still obeying GE partnarship ( I do not want to use the correct word on this, but leave on you imagination)


At end I repeat - do not be naive about usa and NATO when come to Turkiye
 
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Baryshx

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I will give you a FACT about GE. This were said by TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt.
Back when usa started Hostile and offical Embargo which passed via senate and usa president signed, then On the next day as TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt said "there was urgent request by GE officals for a meeting with TEI and GE in Turkiye."
Main topic was that GE request that part of Money and all Assets of GE in TEI company will NOT be used without explicitly asked and allowed by GE offical in TEI.
GE explained that partnarship with TEI is one thing but usa Emabrgo is with bigger weight.


So TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt explained this on one of event where they showed T-1400 engine to the public.
Simple put GE obey usa embargo and do not want to support or do not want to associate with any Turkiye military product.
Unless Turkiye does get exception offical document from usa saying this can be used on Turkiye military project


In way which TEI CEO Prof.Dr.Mahmut Akşıt presented is that how Quickly ACT and how brutally hostile usa companies are like GE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So as I said many, many times here in this forum. People here keep lie themself that Turkiye is NATO ally and west countries will co-operate.
Many Facts keep proving that this is NOT true.
Only talks/lies on media showing NATO that they care, but those are talks and smiles of liers.

Western attitude to Türkiye's defence ambition does NOT changed, usa embargos are still Active. Attitude is still hostile to Turkiye.
One thing changed, West are seeing that almost all military projects of Turkiye are Completing with in planed time.
Hostile PIT which mainly usa digged is still deep and there are no bridge.

Baryshx - no offend but do not lie youself. GE are not respecting TEI. They do not care about Turkiye. They care only for own GE company.
They are happy on cheap labour in Turkiye.
They are happy that TEI managemend is following contract and do not hide, steal or do some kind of own plan.
They are happy that labour became skilled and experianced, but still work as cheap as before.
They are happy that even as TEI succeed to create own products and TEI part is going bigger. TEI is still obeying GE partnarship ( I do not want to use the correct word on this, but leave on you imagination)


At end I repeat - do not be naive about usa and NATO when come to Turkiye
Yeah, it's a sad story. But now that the US and Turkiye are lovers, everything will be forgotten. Mit and the foreign minister are in the US. You can convey these thoughts to our government, but you can upset them with these thoughts.

Doors will open, but in exchange for some things, listen to the winds...
 

what

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Emotions aside for a moment.

TEI is a company.
GE is partially the owner of the company.
A CEO has to obey their shareholders.
GE as an American company has to obey US law.
 

Cabatli_TR

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I think some of our friends here are a little tone-deaf in their language. It's undiplomatic and hurtful and makes it harder to communicate. I hope they elect to change their undiplomatic approach to these affairs. This is WAFF behaviour.

But I implore our SK counterparts to try understanding the extent of the veiled or direct arms embargos that is imposed upon Turkey and its defence industry. It has been very disruptive and disheartening. Designing and building a plane is no small feat, but it takes a little weight off when you can just take a proven subsystem off-the-shelf and integrate it to the aircraft. You know how it behaves, its properties, delivery timeline and cost. All it takes is integrating it with the plane as a whole, which is still no easy task.

The general approach from other countries to Turkish projects is very, very hostile compared to their outlook on South Korean projects. Even small parts like screws got sanctioned AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong). I would guess any difficulties SK projects encounter mainly stem from market share/economic rivalry standpoint. I admit I'm not very informed on the subject but I can't even think why it would happen. In contrast, hostility towards Turkey has geopolitical and even cultural basis. It makes our job much harder. We also need it much earlier; it is both a matter of national security and honor.

Objectively speaking, South Korea has a very hard task and to their credit they are reaching their goals. Congrats on that account. But in comparison, Turkey is trying to make impossible happen, and having success so far. We still have ways to go, but this is the general perception among Turkish defence industry enthusiasts.


The reason can be better explained by Korean friends but this is a visible issue among many people who follow the projects of states. Although Korea seems to be more advanced than Turkiye in overall picture, when we look at the management of projects and component/subsystem level localisation targets of end-products, S. Korea generally chooses to continue its way with very serious technology transfer and foreign partnership even in subsystem level. You can see this in many major projects such as T50, KF21, M-SAM, Surion...etc When this is the case, first matured products usually have modest targets in terms of features, although products give serious confidence to market due to the fact that they reveal with Western system background with S. Korean expertize and engineering. I think that countries that hold core technology in their hands allow a level of knowledge share that doen't allow S.Korea or other partners to create very innovative and ambitious products that may rival/hurt them in their partnerships. The fact that TUSAŞ is not satisfied with BAE engineering support and even made negative statements to partnership for Phase-2 is an example of this. Or More than 20 critical technologies requested by S. Korea from LockheedMartin and 4 of them were not accepted and therefore these technologies were developed through different partnerships or domestic development methods is also another example. It is also noteworthy that it has been repeatedly emphasised that final product (Kf21) will not be a competitor to F35 in terms of features.

On the other hand, Turkiye combines existing capabilities and starts with very serious targets at an early stage and tries to position own product it will produce at very ambitious points or champions league in terms of its features. While Turkiye adopts a very aggressive project management style with relying on mainly domestic capabilities as an obligation with the psychology of being attacked and marginalised by West every time, Korea may think that it is unnecessary to take so much risk and that technologies of the products to be developed through partnerships do not pose any risk factor for national security as long as they do not take an attitude that will politically disturb Western benefits. This must be the reason for the fundamental difference between two state.
 

Merzifonlu

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If we evaluate from the perspective of S. Koreans, Türkiye is a paranoid state. :) From our point of view, South Korea is a little bit naive state.

IMO S. Koreans won't have to wait long to find out of truth. The "Great Naval War of the South China Sea" could break out at any time. The situation shows that.
 

zio

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Kaan versus F15 in terms of max sustained turn
 

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Fatman17

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Three different studies for Turkey’s TF-X, including single- and twin-engined configurations. By 2023 Ankara hopes to have a flying prototype for this F-16 replacement. TAI
 

Afif

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What's this about? we are already way past this stuff. It is 2024 and the real thing has already flown.
 

Chocopie

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If we evaluate from the perspective of S. Koreans, Türkiye is a paranoid state. :) From our point of view, South Korea is a little bit naive state.

IMO S. Koreans won't have to wait long to find out of truth. The "Great Naval War of the South China Sea" could break out at any time. The situation shows that.
Nah, ROK is far from being a „naive state“: We are one of the most ready armed forces (air, land, sea) in the Western bloc right after the US. And China isn‘t ready yet for total naval war for the next 10-15 years. And we are well prepared, ROK Navy has more firepower than all ASEAN navies in the South China Sea combined.

@what sorry for going off-topic again but I had to reply to @Merzifonlu
 

Gaucho

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However, not everyone shares the same level of optimism as the Turkish people. Some analysts express concerns, specifically highlighting the engine problem, which is considered the fundamental component of an aircraft and perhaps more crucial than the entire product.


".. that tensions between the U.S. and Türkiye may not decrease soon, and that helping Türkiye to produce a fighter that may disrupt America’s foreign policy and jet sales, particularly in the Middle East, the Washington administration may not greenlight the sale of F110s to TUSAŞ. Setting aside Washington’s reluctance, even Jewish, Greek and Armenian lobby groups have the potential to halt the export of engines to be assembled to KAAN."

"Moreover, the lack of advanced fighters will become an existential threat for Türkiye since the country is circled by ongoing wars, ambitious regional powers, and a neighbor,.."


"Arab states, the Turkic world, and many states from the Global South will probably purchase the jet as Türkiye will not put forward conditions for its sale. Plus, the majority of mentioned states are Türkiye’s friends and they are already waiting for an alternative jet other than American or European. Therefore, potential customers will push the Turkish state to finish the project in order to obtain advanced jets.. "




My opinion:
Seeing from afar, Turkey has no friends, Azerbaijan and no one else. Allies, a few years ago several Arab countries were very openly against Turkey.
Seeing a member of the Saudi State at the official presentation of Hurkuş and Kaan last year gave me pause...
There are no friends and there are no allies, there are interests!!!

Maybe selling 100 Kaan to Saudi Arabia is a very very good deal, but tomorrow they are enemies...
(Türkiye needs a lot of money in investments)
This is partly my opinion. Türkiye yes or yes "it has to be right with God and the devil," as they say in my country. Betrayal is present and perhaps where it is least expected.

Kind regards
 

TR_123456

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However, not everyone shares the same level of optimism as the Turkish people. Some analysts express concerns, specifically highlighting the engine problem, which is considered the fundamental component of an aircraft and perhaps more crucial than the entire product.


".. that tensions between the U.S. and Türkiye may not decrease soon, and that helping Türkiye to produce a fighter that may disrupt America’s foreign policy and jet sales, particularly in the Middle East, the Washington administration may not greenlight the sale of F110s to TUSAŞ. Setting aside Washington’s reluctance, even Jewish, Greek and Armenian lobby groups have the potential to halt the export of engines to be assembled to KAAN."

"Moreover, the lack of advanced fighters will become an existential threat for Türkiye since the country is circled by ongoing wars, ambitious regional powers, and a neighbor,.."


"Arab states, the Turkic world, and many states from the Global South will probably purchase the jet as Türkiye will not put forward conditions for its sale. Plus, the majority of mentioned states are Türkiye’s friends and they are already waiting for an alternative jet other than American or European. Therefore, potential customers will push the Turkish state to finish the project in order to obtain advanced jets.. "




My opinion:
Seeing from afar, Turkey has no friends, Azerbaijan and no one else. Allies, a few years ago several Arab countries were very openly against Turkey.
Seeing a member of the Saudi State at the official presentation of Hurkuş and Kaan last year gave me pause...
There are no friends and there are no allies, there are interests!!!

Maybe selling 100 Kaan to Saudi Arabia is a very very good deal, but tomorrow they are enemies...
(Türkiye needs a lot of money in investments)
This is partly my opinion. Türkiye yes or yes "it has to be right with God and the devil," as they say in my country. Betrayal is present and perhaps where it is least expected.

Kind regards
Our priority is not sales,never was.
Having an industrial complex able to provide all the weaponry(most importantly the engines for all platforms)needed for the Armed Forces is the goal,nothing else.
First 250 will be for the Turkish Airforce and if needed one squadron to Azerbaijan thus after that decade we will think about sales.
Until then,everything can change,interests,allies,friends foes etc.
 

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