TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Hasanrize

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If we are going to have the 5th gen in 2050, there is no point in doing it, since the development of the 6th gen is already started.

Also, Rafale, EF, F16, and F15 were formidable planes when they were designed. They just kept up to date while they were in service. For example, they didn't have AESA and they have it now because this tech simply didn't exist back then.

Being against the defense industry is political suicide (also has a risk of real one) at this point. Whoever wins the next election will have to back this industry. I think the economy is more of a problem than politics for the defense industry.

Also, having few manufacturers in aviation is mostly related to the economy. There are really not many civilian areas that tech can be applied to. Military Jet engines for example can not be used other than fighters, maybe to produce electricity in ships. This encourages the companies to invest in it.
 

I_Love_F16

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I really do not expect any matured tfx platform before 2050s

If we are going to have the 5th gen in 2050, there is no point in doing it

I don’t think the TFX will come around 2050, but more between 2030 and 2035. The first block of the aircraft will use F110 engines, and they’ve already been delivered according to TAI, so no problem regarding the engines.
 

MADDOG

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I don’t think the TFX will come around 2050, but more between 2030 and 2035. The first block of the aircraft will use F110 engines, and they’ve already been delivered according to TAI, so no problem regarding the engines.
So far we only have engine for the prototypes I think. I don't know whether the second batch of F-110's were delivered or not.
 

Radonsider

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If we are going to have the 5th gen in 2050, there is no point in doing it, since the development of the 6th gen is already started.

Also, Rafale, EF, F16, and F15 were formidable planes when they were designed. They just kept up to date while they were in service. For example, they didn't have AESA and they have it now because this tech simply didn't exist back then.

Being against the defense industry is political suicide (also has a risk of real one) at this point. Whoever wins the next election will have to back this industry. I think the economy is more of a problem than politics for the defense industry.

Also, having few manufacturers in aviation is mostly related to the economy. There are really not many civilian areas that tech can be applied to. Military Jet engines for example can not be used other than fighters, maybe to produce electricity in ships. This encourages the companies to invest in it.
The thing is, those "6th"gen designs wont come up until 2040s. And what is the 6th gen? What is the defining factor? AI? Power gen? PD? Drone Control? Better Avionics?
or combination of some of these?

Now lets take a look at your 2050 statement.
1- TF-X will definetly be mature in 2050s, the first units will enter service in the early 2030s, there is no reason for it to be not mature around early 2040s. But there will be more upgrades to it in the future, look at the F-22 modernisation progamme.
2- F-35 will be the main force of USAF until 2070s
3- If the NGAD was so successful, why are they modernasing the F-22?

also, TF-X already has lots of things that are normally advertised as 6th gen properties. (AI, Drone control, Better Avionics)
"Turkish Fighter-TF, the 5+ Generation Multirole Fighter Aircraft, provides significant capabilities in both Air to Surface and Air to Air combat requirements. Turkish Aerospace’s survivable, strong and agile platform Turkish Fighter is a fully aware warrior, with intelligent and strong combat capabilities."

"Within the scope of TF-X Program, Turkey will become one of the few countries to possess the necessary technologies, engineering infrastructure and production capabilities. Once the engineering activities on all the critical technologies are accomplished (e.g. increased situational awareness, sensor fusion, low observability, weapon bay, …etc), which are needed by a 5th generation (or beyond) jet fighter aircraft."

(From TAI's website)

we can definetly see that they are trying to create a 5.5/5+ gen aircraft in the later blocks. Probably with the FOC, near late 2030s/early 2040s
 

kenny

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https://www.flightglobal.com/flight...uture-combat-aircraft-progress/149147.article
BAE Systems Air chief
"Meanwhile, around 100 BAE personnel are in Turkey supporting Ankara’s TF-X future fighter development activity, with around a year left to run on the UK company’s current contract. “It is a good programme – a very ambitious sovereign capability,” Muldowney says. “There are opportunities for us to continue into the next stages of that contract, both with work in Turkey and potentially in the UK. We would like to remain partners on that programme if we can.” "
 

Cenkcnk

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Why don't tr and uk develop tfx together? I mean, uk also needs that kind of plane. They can add value with their engineering and use it for their own air force
 

Heartbang

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Why don't tr and uk develop tfx together? I mean, uk also needs that kind of plane. They can add value with their engineering and use it for their own air force
uk also participates in JSF program and has a lotta F35s. but they might want to do something similar in the Tempest program.
 

NitricAcid

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"Bird strike tests" of national aircraft to be held in Turkey​

Established within the body of Turkish Aerospace Industries, Turkey's first Bird Impact Test Facility opened its doors to Anadolu Agency.​



Goksel Yildirim |26.06.2022

Bird strike tests of national aircraft to be held in Turkey
Photograph: Murat Gök - AA

Bird strike tests of Turkey's original aircraft projects will now be conducted domestically.
Turkey's first Bird Impact Test Facility, which will support the development and production processes of aircraft such as National Combat Aircraft, Hürjet and Gökbey, opened its doors to Anadolu Agency.

With the Bird Impact Test Facility, the infrastructure to be used in the studies carried out to ensure that the aircraft suffer the least damage in the bird strike, which is considered one of the biggest threats to aviation, was brought to Turkey. At the facility, the damage to the aircraft component as a result of throwing bird molds formed in gel form in various masses with a method similar to the ball system will be determined. The test data to be obtained will be reflected in the design of the aircraft.
2022%2F06%2Fkus1.jpg

Turkish Aerospace Industries Structural Test Manager Ömer Faruk Türkmen told Anadolu Agency (AA) that the facility became operational 2 months ago and that they are ready to test after the final touches.
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Stating that manufacturers should test aircraft under two conditions, Türkmen said:
They need to certify the aircraft in terms of accident resistance and survivability. This is basically completed by throwing the gelatin and obtaining a certificate if there is no problem after the crash. The second is the work we do to perfect our designs. The weight, size, volume, geometry, impact speed, impact impact of the gelatin we throw. We can record and measure the effect of time, the tension, the force, the dispersion of the gelatin after hitting the line, the shape of the plane, everything. In this way, we can reach the result with design and measurement, not 'This did not happen, let's move on to the next'."

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Parts will not go abroad, testing cost will be reduced​

Turkmen stated that before the test facility was established, bird strike tests were carried out abroad for the most critical parts of the aircraft.

"For example, the canopy of Hürkuş went abroad, and after throwing the gelatin at a certain weight and speed, it was tested whether it broke or not. It passed or did not pass the test, other than that there was no information and it was mostly certification tests." Türkmen said that there were difficulties in finding a place in the test schedule of these limited centers, that limited tests could be carried out, and this negatively affected their project schedules.

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Emphasizing that conducting bird trapping tests in Turkey provides a significant advantage in terms of cost, Türkmen said, "We can do these tests with one fifth of the fee paid abroad." said.

Türkmen stated that the facility could serve the Turkish Aerospace Industries as well as ASELSAN, TEI, subcontractors that make transparent structures, companies that make wind turbines and blades.

Projects will not wait for each other​

In response to the question, "Whether there will be a priority among the projects carried out by the company in the tests to be carried out at the facility, and with which project the tests will begin," Türkmen said, "We will start with all of them. First, we do not have a ranking as Hürjet, Milli Muharip Airplane, Gökbey. We have established the infrastructure to do all of them maybe 1 day apart. The gelatin we use. "We prepared the bird model and sabots accordingly, we made our infrastructure and personnel employment accordingly, we trained our engineers accordingly, and we set up our field accordingly. So there will be no such thing as one project waiting for another here. Whoever brings the part first, we will start with them." gave the answer.

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Pointing out that they were able to take all measurements related to the shot made thanks to the infrastructure, Türkmen said that by comparing this with the data in the simulation environment, a great time was saved and the design was perfected in terms of accident resistance and survivability.

Noting that there is no number for the bird impact test to be applied to the aircraft, Türkmen said:

"Actually, there is no certain number. Aircraft encounter flocks of birds during take-off or landing. In fact, the aircraft hits the bird. In the meantime, the aircraft must be survivable, that is, it must be able to continue its mission and land. When we think of a jet, a radom in the front, there is the nose. Then you can say canopy, attack surfaces, vertical tail attack surface. There are as many tests as there are different parts here. For example, we are considering 6 test campaigns for a project. With these test campaigns, after 1-2 calibration shots, data acquisition shots are started "You have to fire at least 3 shots to ensure repeatability. You see if you get the same results from 3 shots. You transfer this data to the crash resistance and survivability teams and compare them with their analysis."

25-ton impact from a 1.8-kilogram bird​

Ömer Faruk Türkmen said that they created a gelatin bird that simulates birds weighing from 0.5 to 3.5 kilograms, in accordance with the standards set for the bird strike test.

2022%2F06%2Fkus5.jpg


Turkmen also gave information about the test process and said:

we would like to install a separate radar, we would like to change the canopy, no problem. We shoot for his new design and collect his data."

Emphasizing that a 1.8-kilogram bird, combined with the speed of the aircraft, will create an impact of approximately 25 tons in a project, Türkmen stated that for the test to be successful, the aircraft part must withstand the impact and continue its survivability.

Ömer Faruk Türkmen, pointing out the importance of the support given in this process, said, "Both our General Manager, our President of Defense Industry and our President give us great support. We only need support. Thanks to this support, our engineers can establish these infrastructures very quickly. In general, bird strikes. "The infrastructure is actually a very small infrastructure. There is a very large infrastructure setup, which includes the Yıldırım test facility, the structural test facility, and Demir Kuş. It provides great benefits to us so that the work done in the computer environment is completely correlated with reality, matched with the reality." said.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Mr. Ismail Demir: The TFX will be produced with a certain number with F110 engines. There is no problem in the supply of F110 engines.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Mr Ismail Demir: Trmotor and TEI submitted their bids for the joint development of domestic engine. A response from TAEC is awaited. No one gives hot section and material technology of a turbofan even if it is joint development with RR. Turkish engineers will bear the technological burden of the engine. TEI is already testing the most critical technologies at the moment.
 

Rodeo

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Mr. Ismail Demir: The TFX will be produced with a certain number with F110 engines. There is no problem in the supply of F110 engines.
I wish they'd stock up the engines. Like 200 of them would go a long way.
 

Cabatli_TR

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Mr Ismail Demir: BAE system also want to work for phase 2 of TFX but we have some conditions. Even if you partner with any company, you can go to a point in ceitical projects. They have many projects as well. Let's see we'll decide
 

Brokengineer

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Mr Ismail Demir: BAE system also want to work for phase 2 of TFX but we have some conditions. Even if you partner with any company, you can go to a point in ceitical projects. They have many projects as well. Let's see we'll decide
I am sure, it is about the ip rights of the tech developments that should stay in Turkiye.
At some point, project could benefit brits more and we ll pay them anyway to somewhat contribute.
 

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Mr Ismail Demir: Trmotor and TEI submitted their bids for the joint development of domestic engine. A response from TAEC is awaited. No one gives hot section and material technology of a turbofan even if it is joint development with RR. Turkish engineers will bear the technological burden of the engine. TEI is already testing the most critical technologies at the moment.


At last they understand that nobody will give it to you. If we had started 4 years ago 10 years would now left, every day we don't do is loss.
 

Combat-Master

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At last they understand that nobody will give it to you. If we had started 4 years ago 10 years would now left, every day we don't do is loss.
This is why it's critical that we have a political party in power that isn't deterred by foriegn pressure to stop domestic projects.

I still don't know why the US is providing engines, what's the big picture that I'm missing ?
 

Abdelaziz

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This is why it's critical that we have a political party in power that isn't deterred by foriegn pressure to stop domestic projects.

I still don't know why the US is providing engines, what's the big picture that I'm missing ?
Coz .. they dont want turkey to go for russian engines
 

Oublious

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This is why it's critical that we have a political party in power that isn't deterred by foriegn pressure to stop domestic projects.

I still don't know why the US is providing engines, what's the big picture that I'm missing ?


Black sea?
 

Zafer

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Those engines are not stealth so the F35 will still have some stealth advantage over the early TFX. And Hürjet is not a big deal as it is not a stealth design.
 
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Hasanrize

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This is why it's critical that we have a political party in power that isn't deterred by foriegn pressure to stop domestic projects.

I still don't know why the US is providing engines, what's the big picture that I'm missing ?

Because most of the problem between Turkey and the USA is populism. That's why we have problems, especially with Congress. Senators etc need to vote, so they need to satisfy dementors on Twitter. And no country would be a superpower with full power in Congress. That's where Turkey got its shit done. That place is named Pentagon.

Given Turkey and the USA don't have the best relationship, there isn't much there. For example, the USA continued engine supply for the ATAK helicopter (except for the plan for Pakistan), new T-155 Fırtına howitzers, etc. Companies are even better in relation. For example, General Electric literally owned %40 of TEI and these guys also have lobbying power.
 

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