TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Pilatino]

With ATSS, Tf35K turbofan, APU, AESA Radar, landing gears, canopy, Tulgar HMD and ejection seat programs, National contribution of our institutes for KAAN MMU will most likely exceed %90s in Block20 version.

Is there any critical thing in that 10%? Like FBW or Computers or ? Or even codes? I really wonder.

 

[MADDOG]

Is there any critical thing in that 10%? Like FBW or Computers or ? Or even codes? I really wonder.

Fly by light actually

 

[Pilatino]

Fly by light actually

I didn't get that

 

[Rodeo]

I didn't get that

Fly-by-optics​

Fly-by-optics is sometimes used instead of fly-by-wire because it offers a higher data transfer rate, immunity to electromagnetic interference and lighter weight. In most cases, the cables are just changed from electrical to optical fiber cables. Sometimes it is referred to as "fly-by-light" due to its use of fiber optics. The data generated by the software and interpreted by the controller remain the same. Fly-by-light has the effect of decreasing electro-magnetic disturbances to sensors in comparison to more common fly-by-wire control systems. The Kawasaki P-1 is the first production aircraft in the world to be equipped with such a flight control system.

Fly-by-wire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Pilatino]

Fly-by-optics​

Fly-by-optics is sometimes used instead of fly-by-wire because it offers a higher data transfer rate, immunity to electromagnetic interference and lighter weight. In most cases, the cables are just changed from electrical to optical fiber cables. Sometimes it is referred to as "fly-by-light" due to its use of fiber optics. The data generated by the software and interpreted by the controller remain the same. Fly-by-light has the effect of decreasing electro-magnetic disturbances to sensors in comparison to more common fly-by-wire control systems. The Kawasaki P-1 is the first production aircraft in the world to be equipped with such a flight control system.

Fly-by-wire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Damn bruh thanks for the detailed answer. I can't imagine a Turkiye with vast energy sources. I think Greek reporter is really right to feel threatened about us. He really knows the history very well and he saw the potential even before most of us. I hope we can find much more resources both from Mavi Vatan / Ana Vatan

 

[Fuzuli NL]

Anything Turkish related on wikipedia comes under constant attack primarily from greeks, armenians and persians.

And some other ethnic group I'd rather not name.

 

[AzeriTank]

Bro, i understand your excitement but to be honest, equipped with F110 TFX is not 'roughly' on per with F-22. (Not yet)

1. 2x F-119 has dry thrust of 52000lbf compared to 34000lbf of 2x F110.
That is a considerable difference.

2. Besides, F-22 has thrust vector control which gives it unmatched manoeuvrability at very high altitudes where horizontal stabiliser and flaps alone are not sufficient enough for high manoeuvrability.

3. Also unlike F110, F119 with its unique nozzle has proper IR stealth.

these days, the missiles do those maneuvers against jets, so TFX doesnt have to be that close, with its irst, it can fire missiles from long distance, or with its way better radar.

 

[Rooxbar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1628815957111058432

Might have something to do with MMU's requested timeline by the army.

Balance Of Power: Why The Biden Administration Wants To Sell Turkey F-16s And Greece F-35s

If approved, these multi-billion dollar deals will undoubtedly have significant ramifications for the balance of power in the Aegean Sea and Eastern Mediterranean.

www.forbes.com

 

[UcanTost]

Stop filling this forum with your trash. Your post history is nothing but anti-Turkiye propaganda.

İm a tier 2 shitposter and its not Turkiye its TURKEY.

on a serious note; does anyone have more info on the engines feeding the ew suite etc?

 

[Radko]

İm a tier 2 shitposter and its not Turkiye its TURKEY.

on a serious note; does anyone have more info on the engines feeding the ew suite etc?

They are not related to engines, they are about the electrical/generation system. Iirc Temel amca stated that it is going to have 2x120kVA

 

[UcanTost]

İm a tier 2 shitposter and its not Turkiye its TURKEY.

They are not related to engines, they are about the electrical/generation system. Iirc Temel amca stated that it is going to have 2x120kVA

Oh, i didnt know that. Arent those generators huge though?

 

[Radko]

Oh, i didnt know that. Arent those generators huge though?

Not really

 

[GoatsMilk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1628815957111058432

Might have something to do with MMU's requested timeline by the army.

Balance Of Power: Why The Biden Administration Wants To Sell Turkey F-16s And Greece F-35s

If approved, these multi-billion dollar deals will undoubtedly have significant ramifications for the balance of power in the Aegean Sea and Eastern Mediterranean.

www.forbes.com

to be expected from our American allies who constantly work to inflame tensions in the region. They will keep arming them as they see fit to counter our internal developments, we should be developing a strategy that will allow us to take greece quickly out the game should a war take place. We should learn from the Russian fiasco.

When the war comes, we cannot make the mistake in it dragging out because the west will support the greeks much heavier and quicker against us then they do ukraine against Russia.

 

[Rooxbar]

to be expected from our American allies who constantly work to inflame tensions in the region. They will keep arming them as they see fit to counter our internal developments, we should be developing a strategy that will allow us to take greece quickly out the game should a war take place. We should learn from the Russian fiasco.

When the war comes, we cannot make the mistake in it dragging out because the west will support the greeks much heavier and quicker against us then they do ukraine against Russia.

True, it's a matter of timing as well. Azerbaijan's timing right when covid-19 crisis was hitting U.S. and EU the hardest was immaculate. Any other time and they would have stuck their nose much further inside the conflict.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

In TAI promotion video, they praised Kaan as an agile. Now, they say, they are not.

In modern combat what matters is that one spots the other earlier in their radar, beyond visual range. And so are autocannons and external pylons. It only has to carry BVRAAMs in its internal bays. Only that would be considered a legitimate, strategic asset useful against a modern adversary.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1653289733202620419

This project needs more funding as well. Aksit said "development of the engine would require 10+ billion USD, but we'll manage with half that.". Considering JSF project cost totals around 400 billion USD in total according to US DoD, this doesn't sound assuring in the slightest. Can you, or rather, SHOULD you really cheap out on literally the ONE platform, that determines whether you win or lose the war, and needs to be on the cutting edge? Sure, you could come up with something that is far inferior to the one that the enemy will acquire in around a decade, it'll see you hand over air supremacy to the enemy and the rest will be what you saw in Iraq.
I sincerely hope they do a good job with the RAM coating and its RCS will be comparable to the F-35.

 

[Afif]

In modern combat what matters is that one spots the other earlier in their radar, beyond visual range. And so are autocannons and external pylons. It only has to carry BVRAAMs in its internal bays. Only that would be considered a legitimate, strategic asset useful against a modern adversary.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1653289733202620419

This project needs more funding as well. Aksit said "development of the engine would require 10+ billion USD, but we'll manage with half that.". Considering JSF project cost totals around 400 billion USD in total according to US DoD, this doesn't sound assuring in the slightest. Can you, or rather, SHOULD you really cheap out on literally the ONE platform, that determines whether you win or lose the war, and needs to be on the cutting edge? Sure, you could come up with something that is far inferior to the one that the enemy will acquire in around a decade, it'll see you hand over air supremacy to the enemy and the rest will be what you saw in Iraq.
I sincerely hope they do a good job with the RAM coating and its RCS will be comparable to the F-35.

The total program cost, including research and development and procurement of all airframes was approximately $400 Billion. The actual research, development and testing phase on its own cost only $35 Billion, as presented in the 2020 JSF CRS report. The overwhelming majority of the $400 Billion program figure is the purchase of 2,456 aircraft, the largest aircraft acquisition in modern US military history.

Now add to that other crucial aspects of the program. For starters, F-35 is actually three different fighters in one airframe.
Also, one definitely needs to take into consideration the labour Cost, PPP and the fact that Lockheed or P&W is not a state owned companies.

After that, it should not look as far-fetched as it appears at first.


Note- When talking about National security strategy, it is always important to understand that, It is not necessary ( or not even logical all the times) to match adversary’s exact A-Z qualitative capabilities to form a sound strategy and achieve credible deterrence.

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

The total program cost, including research and development and procurement of all airframes was approximately $400 Billion. The actual research, development and testing phase on its own cost only $35 Billion, as presented in the 2020 JSF CRS report. The overwhelming majority of the $400 Billion program figure is the purchase of 2,456 aircraft, the largest aircraft acquisition in modern US military history.

Now add to that other crucial aspects of the programs, F-35 is actually three different fighters in one airframe. Also, one definitely needs to take into consideration the labour Cost, PPP and the fact that Lockheed is not state company.

Now, it should not look as far-fetched as it appears at first.

I stand corrected, apologies. But still, it'll require the same, if not more that sum, if it's to not only be in serial production and but to stand its ground against the fifth gen aircraft, in less than twenty years.
Plus, the labour cost would be a minor factor in cutting-edge tech development, and it's offset wildly by the prior experience they had with the F-22 and such. And LM being a private company is a additional factor to the increased cost, could you elaborate further if you don't mind my ignorance?

 

[Afif]

I stand corrected, apologies.

No problem.

But still, it'll require the same, if not more that sum, if it's to not only be in serial production and but to stand its ground against the fifth gen aircraft, in less than twenty years.
Plus, the labour cost would be a minor factor in cutting-edge tech development,

Let me unpack that little bit.


Afaik, The development budget is equivalent to $ 9-10 billions. And if the engine development cost is equivalent to $ 5 billions, in total it would be around 15 billions. (Keep in mind we are talking about direct exchange rate here, not PPP)

So, almost half of JSF development cost.

Labour cost should make a difference in the sesne that, TAI engineers probably on avarage does not need to get paid as high as Lockheed engineers.

But mostly, it is about PPP as a whole.

i assume TUSAS pays it's engineers in Lira, not in USD. But more importantly, (i assume) all the local subcontractor companies that are involved in the TFX project get paid by the state/TAI in local currency. In addition to that, cost of all the locally produced raw materials/parts will also come into the equation.

In this case, PPP would be considerably more accurate when estimating TFX actual development cost.

and it's offset wildly by the prior experience they had with the F-22 and such.

Maybe not as much as it seems at first glance.

Let me explain why, when LM developed F/A-22 as the first true 5th gen air dominance fighter, they had to innovate lot of concepts and technologies (from scratch in the literal snese) that were unheard of before.
Which was much harder as well as costlier Then using follow on same proven design with modifications (like TFX or KFX). In addition to that, they used three decades old design, manufacturing and testing techniques and processes.

However, today much more advanced yet efficient and less costly design processes (like new generation softwares) are available.

Same is true for manufacturing and testing processes. We have now additive manufacturing technology, digital twin technology, etc available.

Just for one example, TAI literally 3D printed TFX's bulkhead with $ 250k printer instead of using costly and super heavy hydraulic forging presses. (Probbaly only 5/6 countries has that technology in the world, but you can commercially buy that same 3d printer that TAI bought)

In a nutshell, all of this considerably reduces the cost.

And LM being a private company is a additional factor to the increased cost, could you elaborate further if you don't mind my ignorance?

Tbh, in this matter I am only relying on 'general wisdom'

I don't have sufficient info to specifically unpack it in details. However, there are other respected forum members here who probably could help us.

 

[Ecderha]

İm a tier 2 shitposter and its not Turkiye its TURKEY.

on a serious note; does anyone have more info on the engines feeding the ew suite etc?

No offense but you are not correct. It is not Turkey anymore.

More than 10 months ago Turkiye government has sent a letter to the United Nations formally requesting that it be referred to as Türkiye.
As it is spelled and pronounced in Turkish. The country called itself Türkiye in 1923 after its declaration of independence.

Idea is the better represent Turkish culture and values, including that “Made in Türkiye” be used instead of “Made in Turkey” on exported products.
So official document was accepted by UN and from that moment any country should write or say Turkiye instead Turkey on official documents or official meeting or when there is referring the country etc..

 

[TsumugiShirogane]

No problem.



Let me unpack that little bit.


Afaik, The development budget is equivalent to $ 9-10 billions. And if the engine development cost is equivalent to $ 5 billions, in total it would be around 15 billions. (Keep in mind we are talking about direct exchange rate here, not PPP)

So, almost half of JSF development cost.

Labour cost should make a difference in the sesne that, TAI engineers probably on avarage does not need to get paid as high as Lockheed engineers.

But mostly, it is about PPP as a whole.

i assume TUSAS pays it's engineers in Lira, not in USD. But more importantly, (i assume) all the local subcontractor companies that are involved in the TFX project get paid by the state/TAI in local currency. In addition to that, cost of all the locally produced raw materials/parts will also come into the equation.

In this case, PPP would be considerably more accurate when estimating TFX actual development cost.



Maybe not as much as it seems at first glance.

Let me explain why, when LM developed F/A-22 as the first true 5th gen air dominance fighter, they had to innovate lot of concepts and technologies (from scratch in the literal snese) that were unheard of before.
Which was much harder as well as costlier Then using follow on same proven design with modifications (like TFX or KFX). In addition to that, they used three decades old design, manufacturing and testing techniques and processes.

However, today much more advanced yet efficient and less costly design processes (like new generation softwares) are available.

Same is true for manufacturing and testing processes. We have now additive manufacturing technology, digital twin technology, etc available.

Jist for one example, TAI literally 3D printed TFX's bulkhead with $ 250k printer instead of using costly and super heavy hydraulic forging presses. (Probbaly only 5/6 countries has that technology in the world, but you can commercially buy that same 3d printer that TAI bought)

In a nutshell, all of this considerably reduces the cost.




Tbh, in this matter I am only relying on 'general wisdom'

I don't have sufficient info to specifically unpack it in details. However, there are other respected forum members here who probably could help us.

While they did pave the way with the general design and the concept of "stealth", when it comes to engines they have a mountain of experience. They first developed the F119, with former experience from F100 all the way to 1950's, and then built the F135 from it. And we've seen the news of the F-35 crashing, having a myriad of minor and some major kinks to iron out over the years in service. We're going to do it cheaper, with no prior experience or research, than the ones developing supersonic thrust systems, for the better part of the century..? Also the RAM coating is still one major problem we have to consider, China, with all its students studying at MIT and the likes, and having access to many classified US industry data through various means, still is yet to develop one on the same level as its adversary. We need to think realistically here. My point is that this project simply requires way more budget than it currently is alloted, if we want to come up a peer system on the same level, in the following two decades.
As for the PPP, apart from the engineer salaries and manned labor costs, the materials and research required for the jet, if it's meant to be competent, isn't going to be substantially less than the US counterparts.