TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Afif]

Translation?

Yes.

Edit- i actually know Urdu, he is not saying so much other than what is already written in the twit.
Except that, Pakistan would induct 5th gen fighter in 2030 before India whose 5th gen AMCA is not coming before 2035.

 

[Heartbang]

Yes.

Edit- i actually know Urdu, he is not saying so much other than what is already written in the twit.
Except that, Pakistan would induct 5th gen fighter in 2030 before India whose 5th gen AMCA is not coming before 2035.

Gotchu. They either know more than us about the state of TF-35K engine or they're bull-**itting.
I reckon both are feasible plausibilites.

 

[Xenon54]

Gotchu. They either know more than us about the state of TF-35K engine or they're bull-**itting.
I reckon both are feasible plausibilites.

How big is the possibility that Pakistani media knows more than Turkish media? If thats the case then we should check the security measures because that would mean foreigners know things that were not supposed to be leaked to public...
Other possibility is simple exaggeration which is more likely tbh.

 

[Heartbang]

How big is the possibility that Pakistani media knows more than Turkish media? If thats the case then we should check the security measures because that would mean foreigners know things that were not supposed to be leaked to public...

Well,yes. But also no.

My guess is that our lads shared info like the basic layout of the engine, development schedule, and similar stuff like that under the partner negotiation talks in order to gain the confidence of the prospective partner. These are rather glossary information and we can expect these to be shared with other prospective partners like Malaysia, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, etc. In order to prove we are not some group of unrealistic bozos with a massive helping of wishful thinking.

This exchange probably trickled down to the defence journalists in Pakistan similar to how info related to our MIC trickles down to our defence journalists. Based on this one could extrapolate a crude timeline of what to happen, without compromising anything critical.
Our defence journalists constantly keep stuff from us, the general public, under the watchful eye of the authorities

Rest easy though. The actual motherlode; stuff like the alloy compositions of the blisks, detailed diagnostic data and other such stuff are safe and well protected. That's the actual secret sauce to all this. Those are trade secrets, protected by domestic and international law.
Remember, the Chinese has all the info they need regarding to the F135 engine through the cyber espionage operations they conducted eons ago. Yet they still haven't managed to be able to put out an engine like that, and their turbine tech still remains crude by comparison to the US.
Turbine tech is hard like that.

 

[Agha Sher]

Gotchu. They either know more than us about the state of TF-35K engine or they're bull-**itting.
I reckon both are feasible plausibilites.

They are kings of bs. Never trust what you hear these media outlets.

 

[Heartbang]

Never trust what you hear these media outlets.

Never trust any media ever. Always double and triple check, from multiple news sources with differing viewpoints.

 

[Xenon54]

Well,yes. But also no.

My guess is that our lads shared info like the basic layout of the engine, development schedule, and similar stuff like that under the partner negotiation talks in order to gain the confidence of the prospective partner. These are rather glossary information and we can expect these to be shared with other prospective partners like Malaysia, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, etc. In order to prove we are not some group of unrealistic bozos with a massive helping of wishful thinking.

This exchange probably trickled down to the defence journalists in Pakistan similar to how info related to our MIC trickles down to our defence journalists. Based on this one could extrapolate a crude timeline of what to happen, without compromising anything critical.
Our defence journalists constantly keep stuff from us, the general public, under the watchful eye of the authorities

Rest easy though. The actual motherlode; stuff like the alloy compositions of the blisks, detailed diagnostic data and other such stuff are safe and well protected. That's the actual secret sauce to all this. Those are trade secrets, protected by domestic and international law.
Remember, the Chinese has all the info they need regarding to the F135 engine through the cyber espionage operations they conducted eons ago. Yet they still haven't managed to be able to put out an engine like that, and their turbine tech still remains crude by comparison to the US.
Turbine tech is hard like that.

But that would confirm my concerns of critical information being leaked by Pakistani officials towards China, i mean if they leak towards media what would hold them from leaking to Chinese offcials who would offer nice royalties for such information?

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

But that would confirm my concerns of critical information being leaked by Pakistani officials towards China, i mean if they leak towards media what would hold them from leaking to Chinese offcials who would offer nice royalties for such information?

Pakistanis leaking info to China about KAAN is as sure as it gets. No need for evidence, common sense is enough.

 

[boredaf]

Remember, the Chinese has all the info they need regarding to the F135 engine through the cyber espionage operations they conducted eons ago. Yet they still haven't managed to be able to put out an engine like that, and their turbine tech still remains crude by comparison to the US.
Turbine tech is hard like that.

Yet their jets are flying with their own domestic engines, including one that is made specifically for their 5th generation jet. We really, really need to stop looking down on other countries, especially China and especially when it comes to fighter jets/engines and tech related to it.

 

[Heartbang]

But that would confirm my concerns of critical information being leaked by Pakistani officials towards China

My main point was the information was not critical. In fact, everything that they could get from such a leak, they already know. And even if they didn't know, it wouldn't be even the half of it.

Yet their jets are flying with their own domestic engines, including one that is made specifically for their 5th generation jet. We really, really need to stop looking down on other countries,

I said relative to the US. They're still begging to the Russians for the AL-41's and the engine tech they already have has 1/10th the endurance of the US equivalents. (example, 1000 hour engine life vs 10,000 hour life of the equivalent Western engine tech)

@Yasar , i reckon your help is needed

 

[Spitfire9]

Been reading this thread for a time. Much informative input.

I have some questions, please...

1 How secure is the supply of F110? Can US block it if it is made in Turkiye?
2 How much is the Kaan compromised by using the 'old' design F110? It has a low p/w ratio, I think. What about IR tracking of Kaan using this engine?
3 Has there been any result from last year's invitation to tender by Turkish aero-engine companies?
4 Realistically, what is the soonest a 'sovereign' made in Turkiye engine could be in production aircraft? I guess 2035 onwards.

Any answers welcome.

 

[Rodeo]

Been reading this thread for a time, Much informative input.

I have some questions, please...

1 How secure is the supply of F110? Can US block it if it is made in Turkiye?
2 How much is the Kaan compromised by using the 'old' design F110? It has a low p/w ratio, I think. What about IR tracking of Kaan using this engine?
3 Has there been any result from last year's invitation to tender by Turkish aero-engine companies?
4 Realistically, what is the soonest a 'sovereign' made in Turkiye engine could be in production aircraft? I guess 2035 onwards.

Any answers welcome.

1. It's anyone's guess. Even if it was made in Turkiye, some parts would come from the US. If they really wanted, they could roadblock the production.

2. KAAN is underpowered with F110 engines. The airframe needs 70k lb raw thrust(with AB) to reach its operational requirements. 2xF110GE129 have 59k lb thrust.

3. If you mean a joint venture with a foreign company, then there is no news. Currently the engine is being developed by TR Motor and TEI.

4. Current timeline for the indigenous 5th gen engine(for KAAN); first flight in 2028 and serial production in 2032 or 2033. The engine is either rated at 35k or 38k lb thrust(conflicting reports).

 

[Xenon54]

My main point was the information was not critical. In fact, everything that they could get from such a leak, they already know. And even if they didn't know, it wouldn't be even the half of it.

They why would that info not be known to rest of us? Just doesnt make sense.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Pakistan getting the Kaan around 2030 is very unlikely, unless TAI delivers all the required Kaan to the Turkish Air Force and TEI delivers the indigenous engine ready to be exported before that date, which is again, very unlikely.

 

[Yasar_TR]

My main point was the information was not critical. In fact, everything that they could get from such a leak, they already know. And even if they didn't know, it wouldn't be even the half of it.

I said relative to the US. They're still begging to the Russians for the AL-41's and the engine tech they already have has 1/10th the endurance of the US equivalents. (example, 1000 hour engine life vs 10,000 hour life of the equivalent Western engine tech)

@Yasar , i reckon your help is needed

Before anyone is to start to talk about KAAN and it’s engines’ thrust level, one thing that needs to be made clear is that, for a 5th generation plane it is the dry thrust that really matters and not the wet thrust. These planes are supposed to supercruise, and will fly without afterburners most of the time if they want to stay stealthy.

F110 engine has a dry thrust level of 17155lbf. Yet the engine of F22, namely F119 which we are trying to emulate, has a dry thrust level of 26000lbf.
Be it KAAN or J20 or F22 ; these planes need high dry thrust level engines.
J20’s WS15 engine is claimed to develop 23650lbf.

Chinese have been developing WS15 since 2006 and only in June2022 did they manage to put a single engine, partnered with a Russian version, on a J20 to fly as they couldn’t trust to have two WS15s flying the plane.. They had an incident a couple of years ago where the engine blew up in an air show. However this year in late June they had two engines actually flying the J20. That means that they are more confident with their engines.

Chinese developed their engines taking Russian AL31FN engines as starting point. Since the Russians declined to sell the Chinese AL41 class engines as they suspected the Chinese were knocking off their AL31 engines from previous Russian planes, they were pushed in to purchasing SU35S planes. With these planes came from the Russians, a certain amount of access to the engines’ technology. But remember that the Russian engines differ from the western engines. For a start their combustion chamber is shorter (hence the smoky engines) . Russian engines hardly lasted more than 2500 hours. After the JV they formed with Safran for their local civilian jet engines, however, their engine lives improved to 4500 hour level.

Chinese still suffer with short engine lives. Until recently their WS class engines were dyeing out after 500 hours. WS15, according to a latest statement has reached 1500 hours lifespan. (This was confirmed here by a Chinese member about a year ago if memory serves) Remember how much they wanted to buy Motor Sich even though they produced engines with Soviet Era technology.

US‘s f404,F414 and F110 engines all have in excess of 8000 hours lifespan.
A plane‘s airframe makes a difference to the lifespan of an engine. The less the engine is laboured during flight, the longer its lifespan would be. Also the amount of high G manoeuvres the pilot undertakes has a great effect on the lifespan of an engine. But it is normal to expect a US engine to last in excess of 8000 hours. Just with a service life extension modernisation they can augment lifespan of F110 by another 7000hours.

 

[Heartbang]

They why would that info not be known to rest of us? Just doesnt make sense.

Embargoes. They already got those for the R&D efforts of TF-6K, they don't wanna risk it.

 

[blackjack]

Before anyone is to start to talk about KAAN and it’s engines’ thrust level, one thing that needs to be made clear is that, for a 5th generation plane it is the dry thrust that really matters and not the wet thrust. These planes are supposed to supercruise, and will fly without afterburners most of the time if they want to stay stealthy.

F110 engine has a dry thrust level of 17155lbf. Yet the engine of F22, namely F119 which we are trying to emulate, has a dry thrust level of 26000lbf.
Be it KAAN or J20 or F22 ; these planes need high dry thrust level engines.
J20’s WS15 engine is claimed to develop 23650lbf.

Chinese have been developing WS15 since 2006 and only in June2022 did they manage to put a single engine, partnered with a Russian version, on a J20 to fly as they couldn’t trust to have two WS15s flying the plane.. They had an incident a couple of years ago where the engine blew up in an air show. However this year in late June they had two engines actually flying the J20. That means that they are more confident with their engines.

Chinese developed their engines taking Russian AL31FN engines as starting point. Since the Russians declined to sell the Chinese AL41 class engines as they suspected the Chinese were knocking off their AL31 engines from previous Russian planes, they were pushed in to purchasing SU35S planes. With these planes came from the Russians, a certain amount of access to the engines’ technology. But remember that the Russian engines differ from the western engines. For a start their combustion chamber is shorter (hence the smoky engines) . Russian engines hardly lasted more than 2500 hours. After the JV they formed with Safran for their local civilian jet engines, however, their engine lives improved to 4500 hour level.

Chinese still suffer with short engine lives. Until recently their WS class engines were dyeing out after 500 hours. WS15, according to a latest statement has reached 1500 hours lifespan. (This was confirmed here by a Chinese member about a year ago if memory serves) Remember how much they wanted to buy Motor Sich even though they produced engines with Soviet Era technology.

US‘s f404,F414 and F110 engines all have in excess of 8000 hours lifespan.
A plane‘s airframe makes a difference to the lifespan of an engine. The less the engine is laboured during flight, the longer its lifespan would be. Also the amount of high G manoeuvres the pilot undertakes has a great effect on the lifespan of an engine. But it is normal to expect a US engine to last in excess of 8000 hours. Just with a service life extension modernisation they can augment lifespan of F110 by another 7000hours.

just want to add how some calculations are done for engine life.

https://min.news/en/tech/c4ad71275830a960f75c880d7d46d34b.html

It is understood that the design life of the American F15 fighter jet is about 8,000 hours, which is equivalent to 40 years. However, in fact, it needs to be overhauled every 6 years or 1,200 hours, and some parts are replaced. The principle of "conditional maintenance" is adopted. The American aero-engine also adopts the principle of "maintenance at work". Simply put, it means that whichever component fails to pass the inspection index is replaced, and the parts that pass the inspection index continue to be used, regardless of the length of use. Among them, the service life of the hot-end parts and the cold-end parts is different. The hot-end parts work in a harsh environment of high temperature and high pressure for a long time, and the service life is much lower than that of the cold end. The aeroengines used by the U.S. Air Force fighter jets may even have the entire main unit of the engine almost replaced.

Due to the rapid technological progress, the F15 will usually not remain unimproved during its 8,000-hour lifespan. At least some avionics systems and airborne radars will be upgraded, and some new modules will even be added. This will lead to an increase in the weight of the upgraded fighter, which needs to be replaced with a higher-thrust engine. If the lifespan of the engine is the same as that of the airframe, then if the fighter plane gains a lot of weight after upgrading, it will need to be replaced with an engine with higher thrust. This will cause the original engine to be forced to retire while still usable, which is not cost-effective. Therefore, the service life of military aeroengines generally does not reach 8000 hours, usually only 4000 hours. In fact, the service life of military aero-engines in European and American countries is generally only 2000-4000 hours, and the service life of a few advanced military engines can reach 6000 hours, and the service life of reduced thrust can reach 12000 hours. For example, the US-made F414EPE engine has a design life of 4,000 hours and an overhaul interval of 2,000 hours. However, if the thrust is reduced by 20%, its life can be doubled to 12,000 hours.

 

[Yasar_TR]

just want to add how some calculations are done for engine life.

https://min.news/en/tech/c4ad71275830a960f75c880d7d46d34b.html

It is understood that the design life of the American F15 fighter jet is about 8,000 hours, which is equivalent to 40 years. However, in fact, it needs to be overhauled every 6 years or 1,200 hours, and some parts are replaced. The principle of "conditional maintenance" is adopted. The American aero-engine also adopts the principle of "maintenance at work". Simply put, it means that whichever component fails to pass the inspection index is replaced, and the parts that pass the inspection index continue to be used, regardless of the length of use. Among them, the service life of the hot-end parts and the cold-end parts is different. The hot-end parts work in a harsh environment of high temperature and high pressure for a long time, and the service life is much lower than that of the cold end. The aeroengines used by the U.S. Air Force fighter jets may even have the entire main unit of the engine almost replaced.

This part is Correct to a degree. Modern western aero engine maintenance philosophy is based on preventative maintenance rather than changing parts as and when it breaks or needs changing due to wear and tear. But parts that are marked for longer life are changed at longer intervals. Also due to how the engine has been subjected to extreme conditions play a part in the frequency of parts replacements.
Most engines undergo at least 2 to 3 major overhauls during their lives and have minor maintenance cycles of every 150 to 200 working hours.
Also it has to be remembered that with the advent of new technologies being adopted in to engines such as friction welding turbine blades to form a blisk and using Blisk fans in both LP and HP stages of the compressor as well as using additive technologies to cut down on individual parts used in combustion chambers, the engine’s thrust levels have been increased with less stresses on hot parts; giving more efficient engine performances and longer engine lifespans.
Thanks to TEI’s organic connection to GE and close working practices with newer technologies, many of these are being incorporated in to the TF6K and TF10K engines. This gives us a good edge on being more capable of producing a high efficiency and high thrust western style turbofan engine that will conform to the requirements of a stealthy 5th generation plane.

 

[B_A]

Yet their jets are flying with their own domestic engines, including one that is made specifically for their 5th generation jet. We really, really need to stop looking down on other countries, especially China and especially when it comes to fighter jets/engines and tech related to it.

Yes actually almost everyone overrated French and japanese while looked down Chinese and Korean.
J20 is now the best fighter outside American.Our KAAN still needs years.
French and Japanese can produce nothing since years before.

 

[Spitfire9]

1. It's anyone's guess. Even if it was made in Turkiye, some parts would come from the US. If they really wanted, they could roadblock the production.

2. KAAN is underpowered with F110 engines. The airframe needs 70k lb raw thrust(with AB) to reach its operational requirements. 2xF110GE129 have 59k lb thrust.

3. If you mean a joint venture with a foreign company, then there is no news. Currently the engine is being developed by TR Motor and TEI.

4. Current timeline for the indigenous 5th gen engine(for KAAN); first flight in 2028 and serial production in 2032 or 2033. The engine is either rated at 35k or 38k lb thrust(conflicting reports).

Thanks for the response.

How would the indigenous engine be tested? Will there be a 4 engine flying test bed or will Kaan be used (1 x F110 + 1 x new engine)?

I will be astonished if a new engine is tested and certified by 2028... but I have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. I wonder when the first development engine will run.