TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[blackjack]

Before anyone is to start to talk about KAAN and it’s engines’ thrust level, one thing that needs to be made clear is that, for a 5th generation plane it is the dry thrust that really matters and not the wet thrust. These planes are supposed to supercruise, and will fly without afterburners most of the time if they want to stay stealthy.

F110 engine has a dry thrust level of 17155lbf. Yet the engine of F22, namely F119 which we are trying to emulate, has a dry thrust level of 26000lbf.
Be it KAAN or J20 or F22 ; these planes need high dry thrust level engines.
J20’s WS15 engine is claimed to develop 23650lbf.

Chinese have been developing WS15 since 2006 and only in June2022 did they manage to put a single engine, partnered with a Russian version, on a J20 to fly as they couldn’t trust to have two WS15s flying the plane.. They had an incident a couple of years ago where the engine blew up in an air show. However this year in late June they had two engines actually flying the J20. That means that they are more confident with their engines.

Chinese developed their engines taking Russian AL31FN engines as starting point. Since the Russians declined to sell the Chinese AL41 class engines as they suspected the Chinese were knocking off their AL31 engines from previous Russian planes, they were pushed in to purchasing SU35S planes. With these planes came from the Russians, a certain amount of access to the engines’ technology. But remember that the Russian engines differ from the western engines. For a start their combustion chamber is shorter (hence the smoky engines) . Russian engines hardly lasted more than 2500 hours. After the JV they formed with Safran for their local civilian jet engines, however, their engine lives improved to 4500 hour level.

Chinese still suffer with short engine lives. Until recently their WS class engines were dyeing out after 500 hours. WS15, according to a latest statement has reached 1500 hours lifespan. (This was confirmed here by a Chinese member about a year ago if memory serves) Remember how much they wanted to buy Motor Sich even though they produced engines with Soviet Era technology.

US‘s f404,F414 and F110 engines all have in excess of 8000 hours lifespan.
A plane‘s airframe makes a difference to the lifespan of an engine. The less the engine is laboured during flight, the longer its lifespan would be. Also the amount of high G manoeuvres the pilot undertakes has a great effect on the lifespan of an engine. But it is normal to expect a US engine to last in excess of 8000 hours. Just with a service life extension modernisation they can augment lifespan of F110 by another 7000hours.

just want to add how some calculations are done for engine life.

https://min.news/en/tech/c4ad71275830a960f75c880d7d46d34b.html

It is understood that the design life of the American F15 fighter jet is about 8,000 hours, which is equivalent to 40 years. However, in fact, it needs to be overhauled every 6 years or 1,200 hours, and some parts are replaced. The principle of "conditional maintenance" is adopted. The American aero-engine also adopts the principle of "maintenance at work". Simply put, it means that whichever component fails to pass the inspection index is replaced, and the parts that pass the inspection index continue to be used, regardless of the length of use. Among them, the service life of the hot-end parts and the cold-end parts is different. The hot-end parts work in a harsh environment of high temperature and high pressure for a long time, and the service life is much lower than that of the cold end. The aeroengines used by the U.S. Air Force fighter jets may even have the entire main unit of the engine almost replaced.

Due to the rapid technological progress, the F15 will usually not remain unimproved during its 8,000-hour lifespan. At least some avionics systems and airborne radars will be upgraded, and some new modules will even be added. This will lead to an increase in the weight of the upgraded fighter, which needs to be replaced with a higher-thrust engine. If the lifespan of the engine is the same as that of the airframe, then if the fighter plane gains a lot of weight after upgrading, it will need to be replaced with an engine with higher thrust. This will cause the original engine to be forced to retire while still usable, which is not cost-effective. Therefore, the service life of military aeroengines generally does not reach 8000 hours, usually only 4000 hours. In fact, the service life of military aero-engines in European and American countries is generally only 2000-4000 hours, and the service life of a few advanced military engines can reach 6000 hours, and the service life of reduced thrust can reach 12000 hours. For example, the US-made F414EPE engine has a design life of 4,000 hours and an overhaul interval of 2,000 hours. However, if the thrust is reduced by 20%, its life can be doubled to 12,000 hours.

 

[Yasar_TR]

just want to add how some calculations are done for engine life.

https://min.news/en/tech/c4ad71275830a960f75c880d7d46d34b.html

It is understood that the design life of the American F15 fighter jet is about 8,000 hours, which is equivalent to 40 years. However, in fact, it needs to be overhauled every 6 years or 1,200 hours, and some parts are replaced. The principle of "conditional maintenance" is adopted. The American aero-engine also adopts the principle of "maintenance at work". Simply put, it means that whichever component fails to pass the inspection index is replaced, and the parts that pass the inspection index continue to be used, regardless of the length of use. Among them, the service life of the hot-end parts and the cold-end parts is different. The hot-end parts work in a harsh environment of high temperature and high pressure for a long time, and the service life is much lower than that of the cold end. The aeroengines used by the U.S. Air Force fighter jets may even have the entire main unit of the engine almost replaced.

This part is Correct to a degree. Modern western aero engine maintenance philosophy is based on preventative maintenance rather than changing parts as and when it breaks or needs changing due to wear and tear. But parts that are marked for longer life are changed at longer intervals. Also due to how the engine has been subjected to extreme conditions play a part in the frequency of parts replacements.
Most engines undergo at least 2 to 3 major overhauls during their lives and have minor maintenance cycles of every 150 to 200 working hours.
Also it has to be remembered that with the advent of new technologies being adopted in to engines such as friction welding turbine blades to form a blisk and using Blisk fans in both LP and HP stages of the compressor as well as using additive technologies to cut down on individual parts used in combustion chambers, the engine’s thrust levels have been increased with less stresses on hot parts; giving more efficient engine performances and longer engine lifespans.
Thanks to TEI’s organic connection to GE and close working practices with newer technologies, many of these are being incorporated in to the TF6K and TF10K engines. This gives us a good edge on being more capable of producing a high efficiency and high thrust western style turbofan engine that will conform to the requirements of a stealthy 5th generation plane.

 

[B_A]

Yet their jets are flying with their own domestic engines, including one that is made specifically for their 5th generation jet. We really, really need to stop looking down on other countries, especially China and especially when it comes to fighter jets/engines and tech related to it.

Yes actually almost everyone overrated French and japanese while looked down Chinese and Korean.
J20 is now the best fighter outside American.Our KAAN still needs years.
French and Japanese can produce nothing since years before.

 

[Spitfire9]

1. It's anyone's guess. Even if it was made in Turkiye, some parts would come from the US. If they really wanted, they could roadblock the production.

2. KAAN is underpowered with F110 engines. The airframe needs 70k lb raw thrust(with AB) to reach its operational requirements. 2xF110GE129 have 59k lb thrust.

3. If you mean a joint venture with a foreign company, then there is no news. Currently the engine is being developed by TR Motor and TEI.

4. Current timeline for the indigenous 5th gen engine(for KAAN); first flight in 2028 and serial production in 2032 or 2033. The engine is either rated at 35k or 38k lb thrust(conflicting reports).

Thanks for the response.

How would the indigenous engine be tested? Will there be a 4 engine flying test bed or will Kaan be used (1 x F110 + 1 x new engine)?

I will be astonished if a new engine is tested and certified by 2028... but I have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. I wonder when the first development engine will run.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Thanks for the response.

How would the indigenous engine be tested? Will there be a 4 engine flying test bed or will Kaan be used (1 x F110 + 1 x new engine)?

I will be astonished if a new engine is tested and certified by 2028... but I have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. I wonder when the first development engine will run.

There are various methods of testing a new engine.
First a newly developed engine has to go through rigorous ground testing procedures.
After initial firing, an engine is tested and upgraded for a long time. The TF6000, for example, intended to give 6000lbf dry thrust, may only give 3500lbf during first firing. Then it is upgraded, fine tuned gradually, until it has an output of 6000lbf.
Once these are completed and the engine is ready to fly, then it is more prudent to fly a single engine with another old engine in tandem in case there are problems and the plane and pilot are not compromised.
How Tusas will progress about these test is something they will do according to their systems and program.
Tusas insists that the 2 out of 14 prototypes will have indigenous engines powering them by 2028. We will see. (Certification of a military engine is a lot easier and quicker than a civilian engine.) First firing should be by sometime in late 2025 or early 2026 if they intend to meet the deadline of 2028 first flight.

 

[Merzifonlu]

How would the indigenous engine be tested? Will there be a 4 engine flying test bed or will Kaan be used (1 x F110 + 1 x new engine)?

IMO, one of Kaan test platforms in the configuration (1 x GE F110 + 1 x TEI TF35000) and flying autonomously without a pilot will be used.

There are 3 advantages to flying without a pilot:

1- There is a volume and weight quota on the aircraft for the sensors to collect data. Because the volume and weight quotas occupied by (the pilot + life support systems + ejection seat) become empty.

2- Since there is no pilot who can get tired, flight and fatigue tests can be performed uninterruptedly during very long flight hours.

3- Unnecessary risks are not taken for the lives of our valuable test pilots.

 

[B_A]

Pakistan getting the Kaan around 2030 is very unlikely, unless TAI delivers all the required Kaan to the Turkish Air Force and TEI delivers the indigenous engine ready to be exported before that date, which is again, very unlikely.

I think Pakistan will get Chinese J35 firstly

 

[boredaf]

flying autonomously without a pilot will be used.

Are there any sources about Kaan being able to autonomously fly without a pilot?

 

[Heartbang]

will get Chinese J35 firstly

And when will come online?

Are there any sources about Kaan being able to autonomously fly without a pilot?

Temel Kotil has said time and time again KAAN will return to base on its own if the pilot passes out. That's basically autonomous drone tech.

 

[what]

Yes, can confirm Kotil said it in one of his interviews but cant find a news article with it.

 

[B_A]

And when will come online?

Temel Kotil has said time and time again KAAN will return to base on its own if the pilot passes out. That's basically autonomous drone tech.

'Battle Of 35s': US F-35 Or China's J-35 Stealth Aircraft, A Battle Of Equals Or Comparing Apples With Oranges?

The first high-resolution images of China’s fifth-generation J-35 stealth aircraft took social media by storm not so recently, with aviation enthusiasts comparing it with the US F-35 aircraft. Much of the discussion focussed on the visual similarities between the two stealth fighters, but looks...

www.eurasiantimes.com

I think it maybe a bit earlier than our KAAN.

 

[Heartbang]

'Battle Of 35s': US F-35 Or China's J-35 Stealth Aircraft, A Battle Of Equals Or Comparing Apples With Oranges?

The first high-resolution images of China’s fifth-generation J-35 stealth aircraft took social media by storm not so recently, with aviation enthusiasts comparing it with the US F-35 aircraft. Much of the discussion focussed on the visual similarities between the two stealth fighters, but looks...

www.eurasiantimes.com

I think it maybe a bit earlier than our KAAN.

There's absolutely nothing on the article on the matter of when the J-35 will be ready.

 

[B_A]

There's absolutely nothing on the article on the matter of when the J-35 will be ready.

Information of Chinese often unclear and propaganda but as they made J20 and the engine I guess they can promote J35 to international market when KF21 and KAAN about to ready,even J35 can be has still many problems

 

[Heartbang]

I guess they can promote J35 to international market when KF21 and KAAN about to ready,even J35 can be has still many problems

Yeah, nah.

The international community hardly gives 2 s*its about the Chinese aviation products. As a matter of fact, their MIC exports are down 20 percent compared to the year before.(https://www.geopolitica.info/china-arms-exports/)
And only the poorest of the poor and those who have absolutely no other choice tends to use Chinese military products in general.

They could promote the hell out of it, but unless they sell for ridiculously cheap prices(like 10-20 m a piece), I doubt we'll see any adoption apart from the PLA.

(or they manage to beat the US on the Taiwan Strait, which is an ask to say the least.)

 

[B_A]

Yeah, nah.

The international community hardly gives 2 s*its about the Chinese aviation products. As a matter of fact, their MIC exports are down 20 percent compared to the year before.(https://www.geopolitica.info/china-arms-exports/)
And only the poorest of the poor and those who have absolutely no other choice tends to use Chinese military products in general.

They could promote the hell out of it, but unless they sell for ridiculously cheap prices(like 10-20 m a piece), I doubt we'll see any adoption apart from the PLA.

(or they manage to beat the US on the Taiwan Strait, which is an ask to say the least.)

Normally that is

But Pakistan is that poor and those who have absolutely no other choice.

Chinese will use that as a second JF-17.

 

[Heartbang]

Normally that is

But Pakistan is that poor and those who have absolutely no other choice.

Chinese will use that as a second JF-17.

If they are able and willing to operate both J-35 and KAAN, I can't argue with that.

Mo' stealth mo' problems! (for India, that is )

 

[B_A]

If they are able and willing to operate both J-35 and KAAN, I can't argue with that.

Mo' stealth mo' problems! (for India, that is )

We will start to produce KAAN after 2028 at a rate of 2-4 Jets per month; Mainly for TAF,

Pakistan can only get very few KAAN, if they can, so they will buy J35 too I guess

 

[DBdev]

We will start produce KAAN since 2028 in a rate of 2-4 Jet per month,mainly for TAF,

Pakistan can only get very few KAAN if they can,so they will buy J35 too i guess

China won't sell cutting edge stealth aircraft to a current day Pakistan that imprisons even her own president by a simple order of the yankees. That is same as giving China's top-secrets to America.

On the other hand Türkiye wouldn't mind selling F-35 level stealth KAAN to all Muslim countries and we are even encouraging it actively.

So Türkiye and KAAN is the only realistic chance of any Muslim countries ever getting a stealth 5th gen fighter. Even if they somehow get something on paper "5-6th gen" I wouldn't trust it 1%. America spent several months to convert pseudo stealthy made for Turks fake looking "F-35" to actually stealthy F-35.

 

[B_A]

China won't sell cutting edge stealth aircraft to a current day Pakistan that imprisons even her own president by a simple order of the yankees. That is same as giving China's top-secrets to America.

On the other hand Türkiye wouldn't mind selling F-35 level stealth KAAN to all Muslim countries and we are even encouraging it actively.

So Türkiye and KAAN is the only realistic chance of any Muslim countries ever getting a stealth 5th gen fighter. Even if they somehow get something on paper "5-6th gen" I wouldn't trust it 1%. America spent several months to convert pseudo stealthy made for Turks fake looking "F-35" to actually stealthy F-35.

J35 is the downgraded jet just like JT17 not the edge stealth aircraft j20

After around 2035 we will selling KAAN but 2030 too early even without any delay(hope no delay like Atlay and TF2000)

Before that Pakistan needs jet to replace their current fleet.

 

[LIbyan Soldier]

China won't sell cutting edge stealth aircraft to a current day Pakistan that imprisons even her own president by a simple order of the yankees. That is same as giving China's top-secrets to America.

On the other hand Türkiye wouldn't mind selling F-35 level stealth KAAN to all Muslim countries and we are even encouraging it actively.

So Türkiye and KAAN is the only realistic chance of any Muslim countries ever getting a stealth 5th gen fighter. Even if they somehow get something on paper "5-6th gen" I wouldn't trust it 1%. America spent several months to convert pseudo stealthy made for Turks fake looking "F-35" to actually stealthy F-35.

China has The Shenyang FC-31 and i think it's for export . and it's looking quite good