TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Era_shield]

@Zafer @uçuyorum @Sanchez
Then let me rephrase my question.

Could there be a "very early delivery" variant in the works?
Potentially to be delivered before 2028, with some omissions? (MURAD instead of BURFIS, no IWB, etc.)

Because this would add to the development time I don't think it would happen unless there's an urgent need.

 

[boredaf]

@Zafer @uçuyorum @Sanchez
Then let me rephrase my question.

Could there be a "very early delivery" variant in the works?
Potentially to be delivered before 2028, with some omissions? (MURAD instead of BURFIS, no IWB, etc.)

There would be barely any point to that, why waste time on it? I'd much rather have that time and manpower spent on Kaan as a proper plane and Hürjet's light attack configuration.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

They will never let us produce the engine under license, they won't even give us weapons systems & fighter planes like we are supposed to get engines and then under license.

In addition, the Engine Technology is from the late 70s, even if there are new revisions of the GE F110 129 over the years.
According to my information, this Engine is unsuitable for a GEN 5+ Fighter Aircraft, it has too high Thermal/Radar Signature, as it was originally manufactured for GEN 4+ Fighter Aircraft such as the F-16.
Whether you are allowed to produce it under license to modify it is a totally different matter, maybe it is the desire to produce it under license.

 

[Aqerdf]

This was kinda debunked (engine thermal signature)

Likes of F135, F119 is creating more heat compared to F110 since they produce more power. So they need more thermal signature insulation / cooling effort both on engine and on aircraft.

Their insulation / cooling efforts also doesn't remove heat that much. More or less it equals to F110 thermal signature range afaik.

So they kinda balance eachother on thermal signature.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

This was kinda debunked (engine thermal signature)

Likes of F135, F119 is creating more heat compared to F110 since they produce more power. So they need more thermal signature insulation / cooling effort both on engine and on aircraft.

Their insulation / cooling efforts also doesn't remove heat that much. More or less it equals to F110 thermal signature range afaik.

So they kinda balance eachother on thermal signature.

I know they are working on an adaptive engine for the F-35 or GEN 6 aircraft. I assumed that the current F-22 Raptor and F-35 engines are far superior in both performance and thermal signature to the GE F110 1XX of F-16 & Co.
This makes me wonder, why then the new development of a new engine in the form of F119 or F135? A new edition of the F-110, e.g. as a 200 with more power, would have been sufficient and would have worked directly with an adaptive drive.
Of course, unlike the F110, the new engines also have a 2D/3D vertical thrust, but they could certainly have been modified there too.

 

[boredaf]

I know that they are working on an Adaptive Engine for the F-35 or GEN 6 Aircraft.

They *were* working on it, Pentagon has already pulled the plug on it and decided to upgrade F135 instead.

 

[B_A]

They will never let us produce the engine under license, they won't even give us weapons systems & fighter planes like we are supposed to get engines and then under license.

In addition, the Engine Technology is from the late 70s, even if there are new revisions of the GE F110 129 over the years.
According to my information, this Engine is unsuitable for a GEN 5+ Fighter Aircraft, it has too high Thermal/Radar Signature, as it was originally manufactured for GEN 4+ Fighter Aircraft such as the F-16.
Whether you are allowed to produce it under license to modify it is a totally different matter, maybe it is the desire to produce it under license.

We can use this engine first and then change it.

Chinese j20 used Russian 4 th engine initially.

 

[Oublious]

Former American figther pilots about KAAN...

 

[Holikarbon]

Former American figther pilots about KAAN...

They're like John Snow.

They don't know anything.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

What I generally don't understand is how it is that the USA denies us all military goods and technologies. But in this case helping us out, that somehow makes no sense when you analyze their previous steps.
I have a theory, but of course it can be very far-fetched, and is of course total speculation.
Turkey has been building F-16s under license for decades, and they were co-developers on the F-35 not only on the hardware but also on the software, so they have very deep insights into a stealth fighter of GEN 5+ to American standards.
It is probably not a lie to say that KAAN is in a way based on the F-35, a distant twin of the F-35 with a different setup.
I could be wrong, but I could swear that the Russians offered to help us immediately with the engine and were even willing to transfer technology.
This would of course give the Russians deep insight into the hardware and software of the KAAN, which is probably not dissimilar to the F-35 (distant twin), and thus also into the design of its parameters and functions.
Could it be that the USA wants to prevent the Russians from gaining access to Western technology? Even if it is the property of Turkey.
I know it's a far-fetched theory, but it just doesn't make sense what the US is doing, denying us weapons systems and fighter planes, but supplying us with key components, even if it's under license from a Turkish company.

 

[Nutuk]

The problem is that the US does or did not take the TFx much serious, but now it strikes them as serious they may reject the sale of the F110 engine.

That would be a great setback of multiple years until our own engine is operative (if ever)

 

[Merzifonlu]

The problem is that the US does or did not take the TFx much serious, but now it strikes them as serious they may reject the sale of the F110 engine.

That would be a great setback of multiple years until our own engine is operative (if ever)

Why didn't they take our TFX project seriously? Did they think we weren't serious or did they think we didn't have the ability? And what interests me more is this: Why did they take it seriously now?

 

[Ravager]

Why didn't they take our TFX project seriously? Did they think we weren't serious or did they think we didn't have the ability? And what interests me more is this: Why did they take it seriously now?

Even with all of their containment efforts . Since all of turkiye's effort were indigenous one .Turkey progress could only be delayed not stopped or even halted at all . While at present a simple gesture still could mend the rift compared than later ..
Why deny the inevitability ?? Leave some backdoor channels would still give them a leverage on turkey no matter how small it is compared to burning the bridges and create a new strong and powerfull enemy within your military architecture standard ...

 

[GoatsMilk]

Even with all of their containment efforts . Since all of turkiye's effort were indigenous one .Turkey progress could only be delayed not stopped or even halted at all . While at present a simple gesture still could mend the rift compared than later ..
Why deny the inevitability ?? Leave some backdoor channels would still give them a leverage on turkey no matter how small it is compared to burning the bridges and create a new strong and powerfull enemy within your military architecture standard ...

I've read quite a few reports by Americans on the effects their weapon embargoes had on Turkey, all of them came to conclusion that they only propel Turkeys domestic defensive industry forward. The best they got were short term hindrances on Turkish operational capabilities but within the mid term it made Turkish defensive industry better, and as the industry got better Turkey pursued her national interests more vigorously. and Americans/Europeans hate that, when you protect yourself and refuse to be their victim. They love to be able to destroy and ruin you, but they hate seeing you do good for yourselves.

The greatest benefit of the Cyprus liberation of 1974, were the american weapon embargoes. That was the catylst, the great moment that woke the Turks up to the importance of a domestic defensive industry. A Turkish general once commented on the american embargoes, saying "the embargoes gave us character".

So basically what they are doing now is creating as much harm as possible, while leaving the door open enough that the Turks don't jump ship completely. Its a bit like the opportunistic British backed invading Greek army at the end of world war 1, once their army had been crushed by Ataturk and was on the run, they made sure to kill all live stock and burn everything to the ground as they were retreating, only to either swim to Athens or be saved by the American navy. The Greeks knew they were finished, they knew they were completely defeated, but they still had the chance to create damage so they did. This is the European way throughout history. Most of the world suffering European occupation don't need me to tell them how evil and violent their occupations were.

Turks, Muslims and in general any non-white race must treat the american political establishment as a hostile and insidious foe and navigate accordingly, these people are more dangerous then the Russians and far more cunning.

 

[Afif]

What I generally don't understand is how it is that the USA denies us all military goods and technologies. But in this case helping us out, that somehow makes no sense when you analyze their previous steps.
I have a theory, but of course it can be very far-fetched, and is of course total speculation.
Turkey has been building F-16s under license for decades, and they were co-developers on the F-35 not only on the hardware but also on the software, so they have very deep insights into a stealth fighter of GEN 5+ to American standards.

Afaik, there was no co-developer of F-35's software. Havelsan had some offer for logistic management but that was rejected because of the policy that only US origin software is allowed run with the F-35.

Besides, Türkiye was tier 3 partner. It didn't have any access to high end avionics and sensor package. (Actually even tier 1 partner UK don't have that much access)

KAAN isn't a distant twin of F-35. Whatever you see with KAAN is the marvel of TAI's own effort and engineering.

 

[Nutuk]

Why didn't they take our TFX project seriously? Did they think we weren't serious or did they think we didn't have the ability? And what interests me more is this: Why did they take it seriously now?

The avarage American doesn't even know where Turkiye is, and suddenly that (for them) non existing or small insignificant country comes up with a 5th generation fighter jet they are tended to believe it is some crap like the Iranian Qaher-313 mockup

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I've read quite a few reports by Americans on the effects their weapon embargoes had on Turkey, all of them came to conclusion that they only propel Turkeys domestic defensive industry forward. The best they got were short term hindrances on Turkish operational capabilities but within the mid term it made Turkish defensive industry better, and as the industry got better Turkey pursued her national interests more vigorously. and Americans/Europeans hate that, when you protect yourself and refuse to be their victim. They love to be able to destroy and ruin you, but they hate seeing you do good for yourselves.

The greatest benefit of the Cyprus liberation of 1974, were the american weapon embargoes. That was the catylst, the great moment that woke the Turks up to the importance of a domestic defensive industry. A Turkish general once commented on the american embargoes, saying "the embargoes gave us character".

So basically what they are doing now is creating as much harm as possible, while leaving the door open enough that the Turks don't jump ship completely. Its a bit like the opportunistic British backed invading Greek army at the end of world war 1, once their army had been crushed by Ataturk and was on the run, they made sure to kill all live stock and burn everything to the ground as they were retreating, only to either swim to Athens or be saved by the American navy. The Greeks knew they were finished, they knew they were completely defeated, but they still had the chance to create damage so they did. This is the European way throughout history. Most of the world suffering European occupation don't need me to tell them how evil and violent their occupations were.

Turks, Muslims and in general any non-white race must treat the american political establishment as a hostile and insidious foe and navigate accordingly, these people are more dangerous then the Russians and far more cunning.

That is a dangerous view, the Americans themselves are not to blame for the misery. It is their government that cannot be changed.
There are only two major parties, the Democrats and Republicans, and both are largely controlled by the military-industrial complex, which is what US foreign policy is geared towards.
The US economy is based on war/crisis, without that there is no money in their ecosystem, so these corporations determine US policy.
Since the normal industry is also the supplier of the defense forces, there are dependencies and extremely many millions of jobs are involved.
The military expenditure of the USA is almost 900 billion US dollars a year!
No other country in the world has so much defense spending. Even if you add up the defense spending of China, Russia and Europe, you only just reach what the USA spends per year.

Eisenhower foresaw that the USA would change and that it would have a negative impact.

Turkey must also be extremely careful, the military-industrial complex currently serves the government and the country/state as it should, and not the other way around as in the USA.
However, if an extreme imbalance arises due to a world war, such as in the Second World War, and the entire industry switches to the war industry, then it is very difficult to switch back completely, as supply chains and dependencies arise in their ecosystem/economy that are difficult to resolve.

 

[Saithan]

I’ve said it before KAAN isn’t 5th gen.

we’re still waiting for it to fly.

 

[Ravager]

I've read quite a few reports by Americans on the effects their weapon embargoes had on Turkey, all of them came to conclusion that they only propel Turkeys domestic defensive industry forward. The best they got were short term hindrances on Turkish operational capabilities but within the mid term it made Turkish defensive industry better, and as the industry got better Turkey pursued her national interests more vigorously. and Americans/Europeans hate that, when you protect yourself and refuse to be their victim. They love to be able to destroy and ruin you, but they hate seeing you do good for yourselves.

The greatest benefit of the Cyprus liberation of 1974, were the american weapon embargoes. That was the catylst, the great moment that woke the Turks up to the importance of a domestic defensive industry. A Turkish general once commented on the american embargoes, saying "the embargoes gave us character".

So basically what they are doing now is creating as much harm as possible, while leaving the door open enough that the Turks don't jump ship completely. Its a bit like the opportunistic British backed invading Greek army at the end of world war 1, once their army had been crushed by Ataturk and was on the run, they made sure to kill all live stock and burn everything to the ground as they were retreating, only to either swim to Athens or be saved by the American navy. The Greeks knew they were finished, they knew they were completely defeated, but they still had the chance to create damage so they did. This is the European way throughout history. Most of the world suffering European occupation don't need me to tell them how evil and violent their occupations were.

Turks, Muslims and in general any non-white race must treat the american political establishment as a hostile and insidious foe and navigate accordingly, these people are more dangerous then the Russians and far more cunning.

As long as you can't pursue your own national interest . You weren't a sovereign country . Yet , it also has it's demerits and hardships .
My sincere wishes for the turkiye brothers .... Make it right and proper . Atleast competitive enough within it's class . Make it as a bonafide alternative suplier as you could be for the NAM and global south preferred choices of arms/weapon shops/suplier

 

[Nutuk]

I’ve said it before KAAN isn’t 5th gen.

we’re still waiting for it to fly.

What are the criteria of 5th generation? It has all the criteria to qualify it as 5th gen.