TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[uçuyorum]

I'm thinking out loud. Kaan iwb has 7 equally distant notches of sorts on sides. Now it has to be around 4 meters to fit som j or gökdoğan and if they are equally divided chances are maybe they are 2 feet apart, for a total of 14 = 4.2 meters. From there i speculate the width is around 1.8 meters and height is like 700-800cm to the steel structures on top. But these are me eyeballing. That tells me with addition of hardpoints, MK84 is a bit too thick, but you should be able to fit 2 or 3 MK83, or why not modify a more rectangular MK84 like munition?

Edit: wait MK84 diameter is 45cm not radius, that means it could fit 2?, in fact even if we take a lower estimate like 3.8 to 1.5 meter it should fit

Still not too sure, or not sure if this is to scale

 

[uçuyorum]

Aviationweek magazine has released the long-awaited photo. The magazine published a photo of KAAN from the top on its cover. So I was able to compare its size with other planes. I got the dimensions of KAAN, F-15C and F-16C from wikipedia. I also added Photoshop's ruler to the image. So I was able to make a scaled size comparison using real photos.

Look at kaan and f15 in this and in presentation

 

[zio]

According to the statement and visual made on 2024 February, there are the following.

KAAN's ammunition integration will be carried out by TÜBİTAK SAGE.

SOM A, SOM B1, SOM B2, HGK 82, HGK 83, HGK 84, NEB, GÖKHAN, KGK 82, KGK 83, GÖKDOĞAN and BOZDOĞAN projects will be integrated into KAAN by TÜBİTAK SAGE.

TÜBİTAK

Milli Muharip Uçağı KAAN, İlk Uçuşunu Gerçekleştirdi

www.tubitak.gov.tr

I think somA and B for external integration

 

[TheInsider]

If you could recall the schedule of TF-X that Turkish Airforce presented during Anatolian Eagle 2021, the actual prototype of TF-X KAAN which should come after the conclusion of CDR is expected to make a maiden flight in late 2026 and IOC & FOC are expected to be declared sometime in 2030s. It seems to me that Turkish Airforce works with realistic schedule.

Meanwhile, India's AMCA team has concluded CDR and is about to enter production of AMCA prototypes and expects to conduct a maiden flight of AMCA in 2027~2028.

In terms of real prototypes that are manufactured after the initial product baseline is set, TF-X is probably like a year or a year and a half ahead over AMCA, but practically both projects are more or less are in the same position.

It will be interesting to watch both projects evolve over time.

That is an Air Force requirement. It is not an official timetable. Airforce says I want this milestone to be achieved by this date at worst. I want this level of performance at worst so that I can accept and use this fighter. According to the current TAI timetable, KAAN will conduct its first flight with its mission systems (like radar, IRST etc) by 2026.

 

[TheInsider]

I don't think India's problem is imperative population & economic growth to sustain any national aircraft project, but a copious amount of delay due to external & internal factors including the budget allocation issue as Indian military needs a lot of modernisation right now to properly protect herself.

However, I believe the most damning issue is, like TF-X, schism & disagreement between Indian Airforce and DRDO & HAL. For instance, Girish S Deodhare, Programme Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) claimed back in 2021 that AMCA would roll out in 2024 and conduct a maiden flight in 2025 even though IAF (Indian Airforce) reportedly said that the schedule is very 'tight'.

Fast foward to 2024, yes CDR of AMCA is completed in 2023, but only recently in March, 2024 AMCA was approved to proceed to the prototpye stage. Now it is generally expected AMCA to make a maiden flight in 2027~2028. Who knows AMCA would suffer more delay.

At least, TF-X is on schedule that was presented by Turkish Airforce back in 2021...so far.

Turkish Aerospace has its unique approach to product development it is similar to Western product development processes at some points but different at some other points. That is why Baykar is so fast in product development.

 

[TheInsider]

Well, no. TAI CEO explicitly stated total internal payload capacity of KAAN would be 10t, compared to 9.5t of F-22. Which seems reasonable given it's size. From that, at least 1000-1200kg would be for internal weapons. I mean it would be ludacris to assume KAAN won't be able to carry at least 4 BVR missile (in the main weapon bay) and 2 WVR missile (in side bays). That along would weight more than 800kg.

I heard from someone I trust that KAAN side internal weapons bays will be able to carry Gökhan ramjet missiles. Same person told me side bays can carry weapons shorter than 4m with a weight of around 200kg.

 

[TheInsider]

Here, the discussion ends. There is no need to discuss further as it has been proven that A-K/2021-2 presentation is outdated to some extent and not a reliable source for your claims

Just a tip, don't be too fixated

It is not outdated. It is the requirement set by the Airforce. It is like a baseline. No one is stopping TAI from delivering a better product.

 

[Afif]

Does anybody remember that Aselsan has developed RAM for KAAN capable of reducing RCS by 1000 times? It has been posted somewhere here.

 

[KAAN]

A rough English translation of "SOM-J, F-35 iç istasyonu için geliştirilen bir seyir füzesi olmakla beraber hem F-16'da hem Milli Muharip Uçağımızın (MMU) iç istasyonunda kullanılabilecek çok yetenekli önemli bir seyir füzemiz. İHA tarafından çoklu taşıma imkanları da sağlayacağı için SOM-J'yi görebileceğimizi düşünüyorum. Entegrasyonla ilgili bazı çalışmalar başladı. F-16'dan ilk atış testlerimizi tamamladıktan sonra hızla bu yıl içinde İHA'larda da önemli yol alacağımızı düşünüyorum."

is Although SOM-J is a cruise missile developed for the F-35 internal station, it is an important and very capable cruise missile that can be used both on the F-16 and on the internal station of our National Combat Aircraft (MMU). I think we can see SOM-J as it will also provide multiple transportation opportunities by UAV. Some work on integration has started. "After completing our first firing tests from the F-16, I think we will make significant progress in UAVs this year."

How is that any official confirmation? The guy was basically saying his company will work on F-16 first then UAVs next. Never confirmed that TF-X will carry SOM-J internally.

Even your article is outdated. Your article was published in May, 2021 and Turkish Airforce presented the overview of TF-X program in June, 2021. So much for

Sigh.

I guess that's enough of me talking for today.

Source: TÜBİTAK 2021 Annual Report published on April 17, 2022.

KAAN will be able to carry maximum of 1000lb of ammunition each, rather than a total of 1000lb, in its main IWB. And as @TheInsider mentioned above, there will be Bozdoğan WVR missiles in the side weapon stations on the both sides. (Anatolian Eagle-21/TurAF presentation, June 30, 2021)

*As @infrared mentioned, SOM-M is probably the MMU (National Combat Aircraft) version of SOM-J (JSF),and according to a report from 2021, size and weight optimization studies were carried out on SOM-J are known. Most likely it was called SOM-M.

 

[KAAN]

Does anybody remember that Aselsan has developed RAM for KAAN capable of reducing RCS by 1000 times? It has been posted somewhere here.

ASELSAN a-newsletter issue 55, January 2023.

To briefly summarize, the graph you see about ASELSAN's applications shows the comparison of the product with other countries. As a result, you remember correctly and it is stated that there may be a RCS decrease of up to 1000x at points where the scatter is high. The tests were probably carried out on an early, scaled-down model of the ANKA-3. The interesting part is that in the last lines, while the 4th and 5th generation vehicles are mentioned, the 6th generation is also mentioned.

 

[Afif]

Can anybody help with the translation please?

 

[KAAN]

Sorry for forgetting this. To briefly summarize, the graph you see about ASELSAN's applications shows the comparison of the product with other countries. As a result, you remember correctly and it is stated that there may be a RCS decrease of up to 1000x at points where the scatter is high. The tests were probably carried out on an early, scaled-down model of the ANKA-3. The interesting part is that in the last lines, while the 4th and 5th generation vehicles are mentioned, the 6th generation is also mentioned.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't think India's problem is imperative population & economic growth to sustain any national aircraft project, but a copious amount of delay due to external & internal factors including the budget allocation issue as Indian military needs a lot of modernisation right now to properly protect herself.

However, I believe the most damning issue is, like TF-X, schism & disagreement between Indian Airforce and DRDO & HAL. For instance, Girish S Deodhare, Programme Director of Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) claimed back in 2021 that AMCA would roll out in 2024 and conduct a maiden flight in 2025 even though IAF (Indian Airforce) reportedly said that the schedule is very 'tight'.

Fast foward to 2024, yes CDR of AMCA is completed in 2023, but only recently in March, 2024 AMCA was approved to proceed to the prototpye stage. Now it is generally expected AMCA to make a maiden flight in 2027~2028. Who knows AMCA would suffer more delay.

At least, TF-X is on schedule that was presented by Turkish Airforce back in 2021...so far.

Well the economy pays every bill. Things at the apex endeavours especially so (these involve the best and most expensive capital and human resource after all).

India was a desperately poor country during the cold war. As a nationstate it also was coming out of long era of colonial domination, painful partition, significant wars with the other partitioned entity (including its defeat and disestablishment in its eastern wing)..... and a situation quite unfriendly to it in many ways worldwide with where there was more developed capital and human resource. These all have had massive opportunity costs that have impacted to this day.

It had no collective security arrangements with such developed countries (many of them involved in the colonial mercantile enterprise that costed India immensely) and this caused a more inward looking economic model and neutral approach to the two superpowers (which meant restricted economic access and trade).

In this environment (no export market access to capital+HR rich regions of the world, no mutual or collective defence treaties with such countries)..... scarce capital and human resource were put security wise to the nuclear program, missiles and space strategically. To some degree the navy as well and whatever could be spared to ground and air development.

Now if India had a hypothetical where it had a guaranteed nuclear umbrella from another along with strong collective defence arrangements and the related market access for encouraging an export model to flourish (to literally grow the buffers to then arrange and optimise larger swathes of HR and capital, and benefit from first mover advantage wherever possible relative to other developing parts of the world)..... simply put it would never had massive delays with the Tejas to begin with (due to the nuclear tests done in 1998, given the limited nature of the 1974 tests and the time it took given nothing on hand like the Mao-Stalin agreement in China's case in exchange for providing the scale of PVA in North Korea that Stalin demanded from Mao).

Without that Tejas delay, there wouldn't be a cascade of other delays in this ecosystem and now all the way to AMCA.

i.e the AMCA would have been done and flying with a "cold war western inherited economy + strategic ecosystem inertia etc" but along with no nukes (and delivery, required sensoring and next set of steps and elements for higher tiers) and the reduced strategic independence (especially for a country this size and the fissures it could have created given the colonial experience....and if thats worth a tradeoff for the extra GDP).

Say numbers A, B and C per capita (say something equivalent or better to what we have today on these) during the 1990s when the Tejas was taking shape....and also had to compete with the nuclear weaponisation and triad (SSBN) completion and the way the powerful+richer countries then perceived and took their own measures on all of this.

But it is what it is, we needed the nukes, missiles, space and ability to manage statecraft (internally and in our immediate neighbourhood) independent of "easy/forced side picking" in the cold war as far as possible.

This in hindsight has been detrimental to our economy in the longer run till the cold war ended and course corrections were finally done and are ongoing.

So its very connected to the economy, there is long legacy from the cold war in many apex insitutions and working processes....and even basic capital and HR still.

Thats the whole point of an economy in the end, it has to grow so you have the margins to take a kittyhawk wright brothers craft all the way to an F-22 and beyond.....by the vast growth, arrangement and praxis of the capital and human resource and processes involved over the periods of time needed for this to entrench and become second nature in their respective manifolds.

But you live, you learn and you improve and catch up where you are behind, and at same time understand certain things you did were also correct routes in a very non-ideal world at the time.

Its good we got some very high power stuff things right and guaranteed....while being outside market and collective security access so long and the tradeoff is a delayed 5th gen AF platform today....that's fine. As long as the deficiencies are being learned from (both regarding the economic levers to gain and grow more and more capital and HR and also how they are to exist and function at every apex endeavour known to man)....which in India's case is a long debate, but there is notable progress.

But with a country like Turkiye or South Korea, its very different. You have different intensities and contexts here....and the immediate 1990s post cold war snapshot can be looked at for it for relative inflections and inheritances for today.

i.e There are simply things you didn't have to worry about or impacted you way different compared to India's situation....that create different routes in critical decision making. This doesn't take away from India's own peculiar mistakes within the world setting it had....but in end its not surprising we have nukes+missiles+space but a slower 5th gen platform maturity.

Turkiye is very unique in how it sits near Europe (and then Russia, Middle East and Africa too with no open ocean like in India's case), its evolving relationship with NATO partners and how it harnesses what it has needs wise for its 5th gen. It perceives it absolutely has to as it has adjudged certain things in its security environment in what it has and doesnt have at hand. This intensity changes when you say move to Indian context and backdrop.....the whole geography changes and there is simply no NATO or same cold war experience (w.r.t economics and so on). So we say have the nukes, but we need to improve on lot of things Turkiye has in better working order already.

 

[uçuyorum]

I heard from someone I trust that KAAN side internal weapons bays will be able to carry Gökhan ramjet missiles. Same person told me side bays can carry weapons shorter than 4m with a weight of around 200kg.

That sounds obvious, why else design a missile like that, if it can't fit only place it is supposed to

 

[Quasar]

That sounds obvious, why else design a missile like that, if it can't fit only place it is supposed to

Gökhan ramjet missiles in side internal weapons bays doesnt sound obvious but rather unprecedented and a big question mark.... it is not just about the dimensions or the weight capacity of the side bays.... this claim may even implies a different approach and a doctrine

 

[TheInsider]

Gökhan ramjet missiles in side internal weapons bays doesnt sound obvious but rather unprecedented and a big question mark.... it is not just about the dimensions or the weight capacity of the side bays.... this claim may even implies a different approach and a doctrine

Yes and note that the Bozdoğan WVR missile is already 3.3 meters long and weighs 140 kg with a diameter of 160mm. In comparison, AIM-9x is 3 meters long, weighs 84kg, and has a diameter of 127mm.

 

[Quasar]

Yes and note that the Bozdoğan WVR missile is already 3.3 meters long and weighs 140 kg with a diameter of 160mm. In comparison, AIM-9x is 3 meters long, weighs 84kg, and has a diameter of 127mm.

Very interesting claim indeed! it is almost common knowledge that unlike F 35, F 22 is build around its internal bays, the very existance of side bays on F 22 is because they didnt want to waste the valuabe space of the main internal bay with WVR and side bays are their engeniring solution for WVR.... KAAN will have WVR this is a fact and as stated Bozdoğan has its advantages but weight and dimensions are the cons in some ways. Million dollar question is if you already need relativly bigger space with relativly big weight capacity for bozdağan would you build your side bays even bigger to accommodate your future missiles like Gokhan I speculate at certain point some may think about it but I still think side bays will be kept for WVR Bozdağan since the limitations and math dictated by internal bays is there for Kaan just like F 22 but sure open to nice intersting suprises since Kaan is unipue

 

[what]

Remember: No need for insults or name-calling.

 

[Huelague]

That sounds obvious, why else design a missile like that, if it can't fit only place it is supposed to

US do same with 'Peregrin' missile.

 

[what]

Remember: No need for insults or name-calling.

And literally two posts later, someone did name-call a poster. Cant make this up.