TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Turkic]

Thanks for showing the real face of that faceless clown.

By the way :

I'm curious about the range of Murad and targeted range for aesa radar of Kaan. Do we know anything about these ? Also what is the estimated range for stealth detection ? What are your predictions if we don't know anything about ?

Anything ?

 

[Huelague]

The author is a well-known clown. Do not bother with him.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1762887086070280391

Indeed, to big and heavy. But what @MADDOG has written before, we will see some changes in size and weight of course.

 

[Khagan1923]

Well this aircraft right now is GTU-0 and not P0 or as it should be P1. It wasn't even supposed to fly. P0/1 will take flight next year. Wouldn't suprise me to already see several changes having been made to the airframe, especially to the nose and cockpit area.

GTU = Development Test Aircraft, for those who don't speak turkish.

It was always clear that we would see changes made to the airframe after data had been collected.

EDIT:

Just to show how airframes can change during development.

YF-22 "prototype" (more like demonstrator honestly)

F-22 first EMD aircraft (more likely first "real" prototype)

just focusing on the nose and cockpit area as that is a topic of discussion for many users here regarding Kaan.

 

[Afif]

Thanks for showing the real face of that faceless clown.

By the way :

Anything ?

Nobody knows for sure of course. These things are classified for a reason. But we can spaculate as defence enthusiasts.

Here is S band Chenk's range and performance.

https://wwwcdn.aselsan.com/api/file/CENK_ENG.pdf

Now, if Chenk consist of 4000 T/R modules (as advertised) and has a detection range of 160km against fighter size target (1m2) in S band, (according to the borchure) then I am not sure how BUFRIS with (supposedly) around 2000 T/R modules in X band would see much further. (Assuming both band's T/R modules and hardware is of same generation.) As X band has shorter waves getting weaker as it travels further and decaying faster. I refer you to other knowledgeable people around here. @Anmdt @TheInsider @Radonsider

Of course this is a very one dimensional comparison including several assumptions, but I am interested in what others has to say.

 

[blackjack]

Technologically, the West is, of course, superior to Russia. The Russians themselves admit this.
But I’m interested in keeping an eye on SU 57 and KAAN.
I won’t hide it – I keep thinking: will we be able to have a full-fledged 5th generation production aircraft before the Russians?

Man this is depressing, I provided information of what kind of specs the 1st and 2nd stage engines offered, and it was like all of that was completely ignored.

TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

When should we expect 2nd and consecutive flights? It was told that collected data should be analyzed first and it will take some time but Hurjet did not wait long.

defencehub.live

You need to give examples of what western engines are better than the performance specs of the Russian engines I gave all the way back to March 31st. The answer is I don't see any aircraft in service that has better performance specs than the 2nd stage.
UEC is opening up another building for production, Turkey does have an option if Russia offers that option.
https://tass.com/defense/1785563 engines received for the Su-35 offer supersonic speeds without boosters and still maintaining longer ranges that current western aircraft.

 

[uçuyorum]

Is anything about WS-15 public? I'm very surprised by the 4k hour claim. That is pretty pathetic.

China is not us. That is perfectly useable. They have no shortage of funds, they can keep producing more. They might make a 5 new model of fighters and engines before their existing ones reach 4000 hours.

 

[Zafer]

We can afford to change power turbine blades every 2000 hours let alone 4000
Test production of super-alloys developed locally have already been in the 2023 reports

 

[Afif]

Is anything about WS-15 public? I'm very surprised by the 4k hour claim. That is pretty pathetic.

Why would be pathetic? Russian AL-41F1S also has 4k hours service life. GE F414 utilized in Hornet, Super hornet, KF21, Tejas, Gripen also has 4k hours lifespan.

China is not us. That is perfectly useable. They have no shortage of funds, they can keep producing more. They might make a 5 new model of fighters and engines before their existing ones reach 4000 hours.

For TF35000, 4K service hours would be quite reasonable to begin with. Later Improvements can be introduced in stages.

 

[Iskander]

Man this is depressing, I provided information of what kind of specs the 1st and 2nd stage engines offered, and it was like all of that was completely ignored.

TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

When should we expect 2nd and consecutive flights? It was told that collected data should be analyzed first and it will take some time but Hurjet did not wait long.

defencehub.live

You need to give examples of what western engines are better than the performance specs of the Russian engines I gave all the way back to March 31st. The answer is I don't see any aircraft in service that has better performance specs than the 2nd stage.
UEC is opening up another building for production, Turkey does have an option if Russia offers that option.
https://tass.com/defense/1785563 engines received for the Su-35 offer supersonic speeds without boosters and still maintaining longer ranges that current western aircraft.

Dear Jack, let it be known to you that generally accepted things do not require proof.
Russian aircraft engines have a short service life compared to their Western counterparts.
The so-called second stage engine (item 3, AL 51F1) is not mass-produced. The engine refinement process continues and will last until 2027-2028.
The new SU 57 is equipped with the same unfinished engines. They install one new engine and another old on
By the way, AL51F1 is not a new product at all, but a modification of AL41F1.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Higher quality 1080p

One thing that happened to me after seeing this plane in action is how most other fighter jets when i see them now look old/dated in comparison.

 

[Yasar_TR]

During Soviet and subsequent Russian era, the jet engine technology development regarding turbine section, has been concentrated on directionally solidified turbine blade production. They have in house perfected the directionally solidified crystals to their own needs by attaining equiaxed crystals (these are crystals that have mostly axes of equal lengths.) .
By perfecting air cooling channel geometry and ceramic coatings they have managed to keep the boundary grain defects to a minimum and achieved acceptable high performance from these blades.
Directionally solidified blades are in essence layers of crystals. But due to their layered construction, under extreme heat and centrifugal forces the layers move unevenly away from each other, giving boundary grain imperfections and causing the Crystal lattices to deteriorate. Hence shorter lifecycles on engines especially if they are pushed hard too often.
Russians, according to western sources, have dabbled in Single Crystal blade manufacturing in some of their AL31 series engines. But did not get too far. AL41/AL51 series engines, according to unofficial sources may contain single crystals. But the fact remains that the Russian engines predominantly are produced with directionally solidified turbine blades.
It is also a known fact that the Russian jet engines’ combustion chambers are designed as shorter than western ones. Although this may give certain advantages, it also increases the chance of throwing out unspent fuel hence a smoke when pushed hard. (This however is less prominent in later engines). When you have a school of thought and design set on a specific way to produce your engine, it is not always feasible and workable to add new tech that works in the West. Hence may be their struggle with single crystals?
@Nilgiri may shed more light on this issue.

 

[TR_123456]

For TF35000, 4K service hours would be quite reasonable to begin with. Later Improvements can be introduced in stages.

No,either perfect or not.
Then why go for indigenous when it is inferior to the competitors(western engines)?

 

[neosinan]

No,either perfect or not.
Then why go for indigenous when it is inferior to the competitors(western engines)?

Security of Supply chain is much more important than marginally better product. No doubt. Eg: Altay

 

[boredaf]

No,either perfect or not.
Then why go for indigenous when it is inferior to the competitors(western engines)?

So that we can have an engine of our own to improve even further on. Our goal shouldn't be to compete with the Western engines, or any other kind for that matter. Our sole aim should be to have an engine we can build on our own that can fly our own platforms to meet our needs. As @Afif said, we can upgrade it later on, we shouldn't just expect perfection or the best engine of its class right away.

 

[TR_123456]

Security of Supply chain is much more important than marginally better product. No doubt. Eg: Altay

So,we didnt think of that ?
Basic principle of the Turkish Defence Industry.

 

[TR_123456]

So that we can have an engine of our own to improve even further on. Our goal shouldn't be to compete with the Western engines, or any other kind for that matter. Our sole aim should be to have an engine we can build on our own that can fly our own platforms to meet our needs. As @Afif said, we can upgrade it later on, we shouldn't just expect perfection or the best engine of its class right away.

No,we need an engine to make the KAAN a true 5th gen Fighter Jet,not an engine we can work on.
We can keep using the F-110 until then.
The minimum is a 35000lbf class engine in 2028 to have a production line ready in 2030.
TF6000/TF10000 all good but these engines are not the base for a 35k engine,am i wrong @Yasar_TR abi?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Why would be pathetic? Russian AL-41F1S also has 4k hours service life. GE F414 utilized in Hornet, Super hornet, KF21, Tejas, Gripen also has 4k hours lifespan.



For TF35000, 4K service hours would be quite reasonable to begin with. Later Improvements can be introduced in stages.

Why should GE claim:

quote:

Reduced life-cycle cost​

GE Aerospace’s F414 features the latest technologies to enhance engine performance, improve engine durability, and reduce life-cycle cost (LCC) for current and future operators of next-generation combat aircraft.

unquote

If the f414 has less life than f404.

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaerospace.com

Let us not mix “overhaul lifecycle” with “engine lifespan”.

f414 is essentially the same engine as the f404 with a larger fan that increases thrust.

just a few numbers I found online:

F414 : overhaul used to be every 2000hrs now 4000hours,
Engine life: 6-8000hrs
RR's EJ200 : Overhaul every 2000hrs,
Engine life : 6000hrs
Klimov's RD-33 : Overhaul every 300 hours,
Engine max life : 1000hrs
AL-31: Overhaul every 1,000 hours,
Engine life : 4000hrs

Going back to Turkish engine situation; we know that TS1400 is not too far beyond its foreign equivalent. It is constantly being evolved too.
TEI manufactures T700 TEI 701D engine for the Blackhawk helicopters. Production involves additive technologies and hot sections including locally produced single crystals.
First of all if GE were not happy with TEI’s hot section parts, those parts wouldn’t be on that engine. Secondly Turkish armed forces wouldn’t accept a Blackhawk helicopter with an engine fitted with inferior life and performance parameters.

So any indigenous engine KAAN will have, will not be too far beyond western equivalents.

 

[Yasar_TR]

TF6000/TF10000 all good but these engines are not the base for a 35k engine,am i wrong @Yasar_TR abi?

In view of Dr Aksit’s statements, we need to know that TF6K/TF10K engines were going to be used as stepping stones to the bigger engine. It was supposed to physically prove to TEI what was being designed in the computer is now a fact in real life.
Logic says that the construction design of TF6K lends itself to a stealthy engine. If this is what we have achieved, then it is also logical to think that we carry on with this tech on to the bigger engine. But there is so much secrecy about the TF35K that if we are going to hit the 2028 deadline for first flight then we need parts being produced now. So what you say may be the case.

 

[Afif]

Why should GE claim:

quote:

Reduced life-cycle cost​

GE Aerospace’s F414 features the latest technologies to enhance engine performance, improve engine durability, and reduce life-cycle cost (LCC) for current and future operators of next-generation combat aircraft.

unquote

If the f414 has less life than f404.

F414 Engine | GE Aerospace

The U.S. Navy has used the F414 engine to power their forces for over 30 years. Discover more about the advanced and versatile F414 engine with GE Aerospace.

www.geaerospace.com

Let us not mix “overhaul lifecycle” with “engine lifespan”.

Oops you are right, I wrote it from my memory. It gotten mixed.

 

[Agha Sher]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1788959083229299085

Temel Kotil

• Kaan being delivered in 2028 will be 100% domestic including engine and ejection seat!

Sounds they are now even more confident about TF35K