TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[boredaf]

Couldn't Spain get the engines for the Hürjet from the U.S.?

If the KAAN is going to use the TF35000 engine while it's still immature, wouldn't it be better to give the KAAN the ability to operate as a drone fighter? That way, no pilot would be at risk in case of an incident."

There is no capability to use a plane like a drone, in any country on the planet, in a full combat situation. Just tests and plans.

And, risking a plane that cost 100 million dollars and precious resources like that is insane. And not just because of the loss of resources and time, but because you risk letting your enemy get their hands on it.

(Or redesign Hurjet for twin TF10000 engines to save time)

That would take a lot of time as well though. They would have to start the whole design and testing processes from the very start and I don't see how it would be beneficial at all to go through all that for a trainer that could at best be a light fighter.

 

[Zafer]

If we don't get foreign engines for Hürjet and Kaan we speed up the Kaan engine development and also make a better F16 with this engine which can compansate for our loss of opportunity more than enough.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Where do the 40-60 numbers come from, source please?

Demiroglu’s and Kotil’s own comments. 2 per month production level is what they have been boasting. Then over 4 years … You do the math.

Yes we know there is going to be at least 20 KAANs with F110 engines. And in reality we don’t want anymore with those engines. But if they are going to start delivering in 2028, over 4 years until 2032 we need more KAANs than just 20, even if it is with F110 engines.
Even if initial production levels are low, 20 over 4 years is just not logical!

 

[Sanchez]

2 per month production level is what they have been boasting

I think that's for FRP.

We shouldn't expect more than 20 for B10. We won't see more than a squadron before 2032-33. Production until new engine arrives will be a very slow LRIP production to get the first units out, further develop, keep the lights on.

 

[No Name]

There is no capability to use a plane like a drone, in any country on the planet, in a full combat situation. Just tests and plans.

And, risking a plane that cost 100 million dollars and precious resources like that is insane. And not just because of the loss of resources and time, but because you risk letting your enemy get their hands on it.

You say that, but all the 6th-generation fighter jets are planned to be operated both manually and autonomously, and they will cost more than $ 100 million per plane.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I think that's for FRP.

We shouldn't expect more than 20 for B10. We won't see more than a squadron before 2032-33. Production until new engine arrives will be a very slow LRIP production to get the first units out, further develop, keep the lights on.

So you are either saying that :
1. they are lying to us and they won’t intentionally produce more than 4-5 per year. Or,
2. they are lying to us because they won’t be able to deliver the first B10 planes in 2028. Or,
3. They intend to sit on their laurels with respect to serial production until domestic engine is ready.

Even with extra slow production rates of last 4 years, Tusas managed to deliver 100 T129 Atak helicopters between 2014 to 2024. That is 10 per year in average. (Far shorter than their targeted 2 per month albeit at the height of production they did reach that rate)

 

[Sanchez]

they are lying to us

They are being liberal with the truth as their audience where they make these claims is not us, air force or the outsiders but the public. That's the reason for conflicting claims.

I don't expect more than 20 B10s to be produced.

 

[Strong AI]

If Trump really wants to lift CAATSA, are there enough republicans to achieve that?

 

[TR_123456]

If Trump really wants to lift CAATSA, are there enough republicans to achieve that?

If Trump wants Trump gets,proven many times before.

 

[Yasar_TR]

They are being liberal with the truth as their audience where they make these claims is not us, air force or the outsiders but the public. That's the reason for conflicting claims.

I don't expect more than 20 B10s to be produced.

That being said, the real issue still stands; where is the guarantee that these engines are going to be delivered?

 

[Strong AI]

If Trump wants Trump gets,proven many times before.

But first it needs to pass congress and senate.

 

[TheInsider]

So you are either saying that :
1. they are lying to us and they won’t intentionally produce more than 4-5 per year. Or,
2. they are lying to us because they won’t be able to deliver the first B10 planes in 2028. Or,
3. They intend to sit on their laurels with respect to serial production until domestic engine is ready.

Even with extra slow production rates of last 4 years, Tusas managed to deliver 100 T129 Atak helicopters between 2014 to 2024. That is 10 per year in average. (Far shorter than their targeted 2 per month albeit at the height of production they did reach that rate)

TAI intentionally did that because there was not a huge demand for choppers after a certain amount was delivered to the TAF. There is still very low demand for attack choppers from the armed forces, which is why T-929 is not seen as a priority and put on the back burner, even though it is one step ahead of the T-129 when it comes to combat capability. TAI tried to keep the production line open as long as it could. This was a good decision as TAI managed to export some T-129s. TAI could have delivered all orders quickly with a production rate of 2.


TAI plans to produce 20 block 10 and either 20 or 40 block 20. Block 10s will be upgraded to block 20 with a software upgrade details of which i have written in the past. A single F-110-129GE costs around 4 million so TAI can buy 6 engines per fiscal year without the need to go through Congress (25million $). This is enough for prototypes, but not enough for sustained production. This way TAI can get 40+ engine till 2032 and this means 20 fighters. In the worst-case scenario, we will probably end up with prototypes plus 20 fighters until 2032.

 

[TR_123456]

But first it needs to pass congress and senate.

Again,if Trump wants it to pass it will pass.
If not it means Trump didnt want it to pass.
Its that simple.

 

[Sanchez]

That being said, the real issue still stands; where is the guarantee that these engines are going to be delivered?

There are no guarantees. Engine supply is totally political and can be cut off at any point in time. Solidifying relations with US and not putting all eggs in basket is a must, I've been supporting the same for the last 5 years. We need F-16s to move forward to restart relations, F-35s to solidify the relations, engines to keep it turning and EF to have a backup.

There's no Kaan before 2035 at the earliest unless US plays ball.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar_TR

If the F110 engines cannot be procured, I believe we will have to resort to a rather risky course of action. That risky course is this: Delivering the Block 10 Kaans using immature TF35000 engines, which offer F110 thrust values. This would save the Kaan program from a complete collapse.

Even then, by my estimate, the Kaan program would be delayed by approximately two years. The first Kaans would be delivered in 2030, not 2028, at the best.
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However, if the F404 engines cannot be procured, the Hürjet program would certainly collapse. Because, a) There is no money or manpower to redesign the aircraft, as Temel Kotil has said; and b) Developing a new engine would take 10 years, at the best!
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I believe the USA will not finalize the F404 procurement until the fate of the Boeing T7 is clear. If T7 fails, i believe USA will deliver the F404s. Because in that case, the USA will also need Hürjet. I cannot predict what the USA will do regarding the F110. If the T7 doesn't fail, will the US deliver the F404s? Just like with the F110s, I can't predict that.

I agree with your second paragraph fully. My only addition would be the introduction of a EJ200 engine as an alternative. Since ITP of Spain has been instrumental in the development of a single engined and TVC version of this engine, it could be an alternative to F404. But it would still delay the serial production.

Regarding your last paragraph; although logical, US intends to sell 2000 of these trainers world wide. T7 is not supersonic and comparatively cheap. They have done nothing to hinder S Korea’s TA50 production which is similar to Hurjet. Unless they have a special animosity towards us, I can’t see them stopping delivery of these engines because of competition. But more likely will try to throw a spanner in the works supported by anti Turkiye lobbies in US administration.

Regarding your first paragraph; When it comes to the stage that KAAN B10s are going to be without engines, they will push TEI to deliver engines that can fly the plane even before the engine is fully matured. But with respect to thrust levels; the real issue still is not the thrust levels but the durability of parts. Before thrust levels this is the main area TEI will concentrate in the development stages. So first engines may not last as long as desired. But will gradually get to acceptable levels. (Remember Chinese WS10 lasting 250 hours then 500hours. Now they claim a life expectancy of 1000 to 1500 hours)

 

[TheInsider]

If we can get 40 Eurofighters and Kızılelma, Anka-3 and F-16 Özgür II deliveries starts around 2027 I'm ok with 20 block 10/20 KAANs untill 2032.

 

[hugh]

If we can get 40 Eurofighters and Kızılelma, Anka-3 and F-16 Özgür II deliveries starts around 2027 I'm ok with 20 block 10/20 KAANs untill 2032.

assuming both TF10000 and MURAD AESA are in volume production by 2027/2028

 

[Zafer]

So the plan is to go with foreign engines for the prototypes and make the 20 block 10 planes with foreign engines if there are foreign engines available and introduce national engines when foreign engines are no longer available no matter what level of maturity is achieved with the national engine at the time.

In any case we stick to a timeline when production is made starting in '28 and continues steadily so that we can satisfy the outstanding national demand and start delivering to foreign operators in '32.

So if we can run the national engine by the end of '26 and spend 3 years maturing it and preparing the engine production line we can introduce a first generation national Kaan engine with acceptable performance in time for production by the end of '29. We keep improving the engine as we go and make it world class by '32 export time. We can always upgrade TurAF deliveries with new batches of engines as we make improvements.

 

[boredaf]

You say that, but all the 6th-generation fighter jets are planned to be operated both manually and autonomously, and they will cost more than $ 100 million per plane.

6th gen is a decade away (at best) from being properly used and technology will, probably, improve by then but it simply does not exist right now. And those planes are most likely designed from the start to be that way; although I find it quite a bit redundant.

Making a completely unmanned version of a plane without all the systems that are required for a plane but irrelevant in a drone would lower the cost (and possibly production time), possibly lowers the weight of the plane and allows for more specialization.

 

[boredaf]

If Trump really wants to lift CAATSA, are there enough republicans to achieve that?

Yes, they control both the Senate and the House.