Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Gary]

Yeah, I don't think that's an issue - if Korean's are offering KAI FA-50 with AESA radar and ECM suites.

Indian's with their AESA radar on HAL TEJAS
View attachment 33476

HAL Tejas is a light jet, that gives it a constraint on certain capabilities. Like operational range, power etc.

I think it's a bad choice to cancel the F-16 order and replaces it with an inferior light jet, remember Turkey had make mistakes with choosing the S-400, you should not make the same mistake twice.

Turkey is already surrounded by neighbors with increasingly capable jets, and the F-35 debacle turned what was supposed to be a Turkish advantage in the region into nothing. If anything imo Turkey must find a stop gap either with new Block 70 Viper or try to buy the F-15 Eagle II to narrow the gap.

ps : F-15 Eagle II because it uses same F110 GE-129 with Turkish falcon fleet.

 

[Turan]

HAL Tejas is a light jet, that gives it a constraint on certain capabilities. Like operational range, power etc.

I think it's a bad choice to cancel the F-16 order and replaces it with an inferior light jet, remember Turkey had make mistakes with choosing the S-400, you should not make the same mistake twice.

Turkey is already surrounded by neighbors with increasingly capable jets, and the F-35 debacle turned what was supposed to be a Turkish advantage in the region into nothing. If anything imo Turkey must find a stop gap either with new Block 70 Viper or try to buy the F-15 Eagle II to narrow the gap.

ps : F-15 Eagle II because it uses same F110 GE-129 with Turkish falcon fleet.

Why are you talking like we have a choice?

 

[Gary]

Why are you talking like we have a choice?

did the US already block the F-16 sale ???

 

[Turan]

did the US already block the F-16 sale ???

İ am not talking about F16 sale. My question is:
After all these events, do you think America will sell F15 to Turkey?
If Turkey's relationship with America was good enough to buy F15, which plane would it choose to buy from America or was it chosen?

 

[Gary]

İ am not talking about F16 sale. My question is:
After all these events, do you think America will sell F15 to Turkey?
If Turkey's relationship with America was good enough to buy F15, which plane would it choose to buy from America or was it chosen?

oh I see...

as for the F-15 hypothetical sales, it's my personal opinion only, because I've seen some lists here that included F/A-18s, Su-35 etc, my opinion is, if Turkey is going to opt for another jet other than the F-16, than make sure its engine is at least compatible with each other.

 

[Gessler]

Why are you talking like we have a choice?

There is the Gripen/Gripen E.

I think Sweden remains neutral in most affairs, and most equipment are well integrated with NATO standards (despite being non-member) - if the American-origin engine is an issue, then the same is the case with Tejas as well, both use GE engines.

If the US is okay with exporting the engines, Gripen E could be a way to minimize dependence on US to a bare minimum (which can be re-engined later if given enough investment), while still offering an upgrade over current F16 capabilities.

 

[Turan]

There is the Gripen/Gripen E.

I think Sweden remains neutral in most affairs, and most equipment are well integrated with NATO standards (despite being non-member) - if the American-origin engine is an issue, then the same is the case with Tejas as well, both use GE engines.

If the US is okay with exporting the engines, Gripen E could be a way to minimize dependence on US to a bare minimum (which can be re-engined later if given enough investment), while still offering an upgrade over current F16 capabilities.

Sweden is worse than America in terms of selling weapons to Turkey because of the PKK.
Even more likely to get f16 from America than to get gripen from sweden.

 

[Gessler]

Sweden is worse than America in terms of selling weapons to Turkey because of the PKK.
Even more likely to get f16 from America than to get gripen from sweden.

Hmm, I was not aware of that equation.

 

[Tsenal]

Sweden is worse than America in terms of selling weapons to Turkey because of the PKK.
Even more likely to get f16 from America than to get gripen from sweden.

They may change their tune if billions of dollars are in line. They are probably desperate to export Gripen.

 

[Nutuk]

Introduction of a new type 4th generation fighter jet is probably the dumbest that we can do (unless it is our own product like Hurjet)

 

[Ardabas34]

We were literally days away from receiving them when the S400 deliveries began.

Everyone knew what would happen.
Our government was just too stupid to see it, even after taking deliveries of S400 they kept arguing that Greece has S300s therefore we should get F35s

You really believe they would have given a TurAF that purged its gulenists F35s?
They were never going to give those jets to us, they were going to give them to their own men in our army.

TurAF was the primary target of Gulenists to infiltrate. Tell me if I am wrong but to my knowledge that was the most purged place after 15 july as well.

I cant understand how you guys believe in US rhetoric of S400s being a potential spyware to identify F-35s. Everyone already knows everything. China has already copied F-35. Both China and Russia hacked the plans of F-35 and know everything regarding the plane. There are already many theatres where Russia can/could use S400s and analyze F35. Turkey also suggested American personnel to inspect.

I really dont understand how some of you think. Turkey was eventually going to ditch USA. So a crisis like this was always bound to happen. World conjuncture points at regional powers gaining influence while global powers losing. You think we were always going to remain lapdogs of USA? Well, we would have to cede Eastern Anatolia, Northern Cyprus and Blue Homeland for that and never have our own defense industry.

F-35 was a bait on the hook. You are like a fish regretting not getting that bait. That worm was never going to be ours to begin with. So it doesnt matter how delicious that worm was.

Now Turkey made a smart diplomatical move by demanding F-16 Vipers. If they dont give us we will have diplomatical excuse for preferring others. If they give us then we will strengthen our air force until 2030.

 

[Combat-Master]

Could TAİ easly replace F404 with this engines after designed Hürjet with F404 engines?
And i also hear that east block engines differently than west block engines. Can this transition make big problem for TAI or TurAF?

No, the inlet would have to be redesigned - but it's a rather minor change in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Combat-Master]

HAL Tejas is a light jet, that gives it a constraint on certain capabilities. Like operational range, power etc.

I think it's a bad choice to cancel the F-16 order and replaces it with an inferior light jet, remember Turkey had make mistakes with choosing the S-400, you should not make the same mistake twice.

Turkey is already surrounded by neighbors with increasingly capable jets, and the F-35 debacle turned what was supposed to be a Turkish advantage in the region into nothing. If anything imo Turkey must find a stop gap either with new Block 70 Viper or try to buy the F-15 Eagle II to narrow the gap.

ps : F-15 Eagle II because it uses same F110 GE-129 with Turkish falcon fleet.

Hurjet is being designed from the start to have aerial refuelling as standard - so operational range isn't a big deal, a defensive aircraft is what is needed for now with the offensive deep-strike aircraft TFX is still to come. So, Turkey would have a good mix of aircraft going forward - 4+gen > Hurjet and 5gen > TFX

I'm not suggesting cancelling the F-16Blk70 and Modernisation packages, I'm looking at an alternative in case the US implements an infinite congressional stall or complete rejection - Hurjet in the light attack configuration seems to fit the mould.

 

[Turan]

If additional viper sales and/or the upgrade package are somehow blocked by the US legislation, we should as well be worried about the GE engine to power Hurjet (especially as we plan to use it for more than a trainer). Any US confirmation or assurance on F-404, or any alternative yet?

He say we could go Chinese or Russian engines for Hurjet.

 

[TheInsider]

It seems like F-16 deal is going through unless congress stops that. Biden admin is completely ok with the deal in fact the US officials encouraged this. If this deal won't happen Türkiye will look for alternatives whatever the cost is and I expect an extremely harsh stance against the US.

40 new block 70s and block 50+ F-16s which will be upgraded to block 70 can carry conformal fuel tanks. 69 fighters in total that will more than double our long-range reach in the region. Combine this with upgraded KC-135 tankers and new A-330 MRRT tankers TAF is willing to acquire we will have a good force projection capability at long range.

We can't upgrade even the oldest block 50 fighters before the 2027-2028 period due to the terms of the deals so an upgrade package for block 50+(we can't touch them before 2040) and most of the block 50 fighters is a must. 80 block 70 modernization will cover this need. 29 block 50+ and 51 block 50( the latest delivered fighters of the block 50 batch) will be modernized. Block 30 Özgür mod will start in 2023, block 40s will likely go under modernization starting in 2025. We can upgrade whatever unmodernized block 50s(oldest block 50s) by the end of the decade or relegate them to bombing duties as time passes. Having undergone CCIP modernization those unupgraded block 50s will be formidable fighters at least for another 5-7 years.

80 block 70 modernization and 40 new F-16 block 70 production will happen at TAI(F-110 engines will be produced in TEI) so there will be a vast national contribution and a good portion of the money will be kept in Türkiye.

All in all, if the deal happens we will have
40 new block 70 (can use conformal fuel tanks, It might take ~2 years to produce all with a tempo of 2 aircraft per month)
29 block 50+ upgraded to block 70 (can use conformal fuel tanks, It might take ~4 years to upgrade all block 50+ and block 50 fighters with an upgrade tempo of 2 per month)
51 block 50 upgraded to block 70
20 block 50 that will undergo Özgür modernization by the end of this decade or be relegated to bombing duties as time passes.
102 block 40s that will undergo Özgür modernization starting from 2025( it might take ~5 years to upgrade all with an upgrade tempo of 2 per month)
36 block 30s that will undergo Özgür modernization starting from 2023.( it might take ~2 years to upgrade all with an upgrade tempo of 2 per month)

Simultaneously with those projects, we will produce an enormous arsenal of Turkish national weapons package. We are already at a place most countries dream of when it comes to A-G weapons both in weapon variety and the size of the arsenal and production capacity. We made a great effort for A-A weapons in the last few years. Amraam and AIM-9x class missiles are maturing and ramjet A-A project is going on.

Tactical, MALE and MALE+ UAVs are in mass production. The first flight of Baykar MIUS block 1(high subsonic) will happen in 2023 and block 2 (supersonic) in 2025.

 

[Huelague]

actually that's enough, an F-35 is a networked jet, with advanced sensor fusion and unmatched data sharing and situational awareness. it's going to be a whole different level to an F-16 or any existing 4th gen jets.

The F-35 is the single most sophisticated flying machine in existence today.

24 jets can never be change a balance between Turkey and Greece. Maybe if both country were equal to each other. Maybe.

 

[LegionnairE]

Introduction of a new type 4th generation fighter jet is probably the dumbest that we can do (unless it is our own product like Hurjet)

Israelis are so stupid... maintaining two types of 4th generation fighters like that. Idiots amirite?

Also who banned me? It seems my superiority has led to some controversy.

 

[LegionnairE]

You really believe they would have given a TurAF that purged its gulenists F35s?
They were never going to give those jets to us, they were going to give them to their own men in our army.

TurAF was the primary target of Gulenists to infiltrate. Tell me if I am wrong but to my knowledge that was the most purged place after 15 july as well.

I cant understand how you guys believe in US rhetoric of S400s being a potential spyware to identify F-35s. Everyone already knows everything. China has already copied F-35. Both China and Russia hacked the plans of F-35 and know everything regarding the plane. There are already many theatres where Russia can/could use S400s and analyze F35. Turkey also suggested American personnel to inspect.

I really dont understand how some of you think. Turkey was eventually going to ditch USA. So a crisis like this was always bound to happen. World conjuncture points at regional powers gaining influence while global powers losing. You think we were always going to remain lapdogs of USA? Well, we would have to cede Eastern Anatolia, Northern Cyprus and Blue Homeland for that and never have our own defense industry.

F-35 was a bait on the hook. You are like a fish regretting not getting that bait. That worm was never going to be ours to begin with. So it doesnt matter how delicious that worm was.

Now Turkey made a smart diplomatical move by demanding F-16 Vipers. If they dont give us we will have diplomatical excuse for preferring others. If they give us then we will strengthen our air force until 2030.

The issue is not the so called "spy software" in S400 It's that they feel betrayed Turkey would cooperate with their enemy, Russia.
Which is ironic since they support PKK offshoots.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics behind thinking "F35 was bait" at the same time as "F16 block 70 will strengthen our air force" Do I need to explain to you that both are made by the same country? I'm utterly confused.


Look guys I'm onboard the anti-American hate wagon. I'm all in. But explain to me why we can't activate the S400 systems and why are we asking for F16s now?
We did a naughty thing by buying S400, we got slapped and we're going back to America now.

 

[Ardabas34]

The issue is not the so called "spy software" in S400 It's that they feel betrayed Turkey would cooperate with their enemy, Russia.
Which is ironic since they support PKK offshoots.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics behind thinking "F35 was bait" at the same time as "F16 block 70 will strengthen our air force" Do I need to explain to you that both are made by the same country? I'm utterly confused.


Look guys I'm onboard the anti-American hate wagon. I'm all in. But explain to me why we can't activate the S400 systems and why are we asking for F16s now?
We did a naughty thing by buying S400, we got slapped and we're going back to America now.

Except I am not saying ''we should be glad they didnt sell us F-35s! We are independent now!'' while on the other hand saying ''I hope they give us F-16 Vipers!''
I wish they sold us F-35s, all I am saying is that they were never going to anyway. Turkish air force has been left vulnerable for a decade as it relied on F-35s. I wish the transition to TFX would be smooth but the political conjuncture was screaming this turbulance was bound to happen.

F-35 right now is a strategical asset. It is a model for future fighter jets and the only proper gen-5 stealth jet on the market. They did give a lame ass excuse by saying S-400s are incompatible as they can be a spyware and study the profile of F-35 on radar as stealth is its primary feature.

Well F-16 vipers arent stealthy so there is no need to worry about S-400 radar figuring it out.

USA accused Turkey of fueling Russian defense industry(as if for all these years they didnt advocate for ''free market economy'' in all those third world countries) so we gave them a proposal of receiving F-16 vipers that can enable us to maintain the gap with Greece and if USA doesnt sell we will have a nice rhetoric against them.

They definitely didnt feel betrayed. Lets analyze what happened in chronological order.

0- June-July 2015: Erdogan calls on World that they will not tolerate a new state in the North of Syria and one month later PKK makes the Ceylanpinar attack and hence the so called ''solution process'' with PKK ends.
1- November 2015 Russian jet is shot down.
2- June 2016 Erdogan expresses regret for the shoot down of the Russian jet.
3- July 2016 the coup attempt happens and Vladimir Putin calls Erdogan out of solidarity before any Nato members.
4- 21 July 2016 Erdogan says the F-16 pilot that shot the Russian plane was a gulenist.
5- August 2016 Erdogan goes to St.Petersburg and the BBC commented that the summit, at which Erdoğan thanked Putin for his swift support during the coup attempt, ″unnerved the West″.
6- December 2016 Russian ambassador Andrei Karlov is assassinated by a gulenist.
7- December 2016 two countries initiate Astana Peace talks for Syria.
8- May 2017 Russia lifts the sanctions on Turkey.
9- September 2017 Turkey makes the S-400 deal.

Now along with this list I know two countries fight proxy wars in Syria and Libya. Libyan issue is not hot as I suspect both sides despite supporting opposite sides enjoy the status quo but in Syria both countries interests clash. For Nagorno-Karabakh I am pretty sure both were happy with how it all turned out.

Now all these above are the data we have as ordinary citizens. When you look at the chronology one thing is pretty clear. USA tried to spoil the relationships of Turkey-Russia both with Karlov assassination and jet shootdown yet Turkey and Russia still approached each other.

Buying a new weapon system is a mark of reorienting in foreign policy. Turkey didnt buy S-400 all of a sudden. It was a long coming development and it happened.

 

[LegionnairE]

@Ardabas34 I see, we agree about the F35 then. We do need it. And since we don't have a time machine, I can't prove it to you but it seems to me that if we didn't buy the S400 we would get the plane.

Buying a new weapon system is a mark of reorienting in foreign policy. Turkey didnt buy S-400 all of a sudden. It was a long coming development and it happened.

It just seems to me that our government just didn't anticipate the amount of problems this would cause.
They thought that they could get away with it. Which is why they aren't activating the S400 system and not buying the second batch.


We piss off Russia, we buy S400. We piss off americans, we buy F16. (or we try lol) On either case our policy is appeasement