Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Nutuk]

Israelis are so stupid... maintaining two types of 4th generation fighters like that. Idiots amirite?

Also who banned me? It seems my superiority has led to some controversy.

We have / had too

We have F4 and F16 remember? But now that 5th generation aircraft are out, would it not be an Einstein deed to introduce another 4th generation?

 

[LegionnairE]

We have / had too

We have F4 and F16 remember? But now that 5th generation aircraft are out, would it not be an Einstein deed to introduce another 4th generation?

F4 is 3rd generation

And you realize that F16 Block 70 is 4th gen right?

Gripen-E and Eurofighter are 4+ platforms that bring in some 5th generation capabilities.
Reduced radar visibility, IRST, AESA radar, Electronic warfare capabilities. Honestly the only thing that's missing is stealth.

 

[Nutuk]

Lol there you are indeed right, F4 is 3rd generation.

Point is that at this moment you should not think about introducing another 4th generation aircraft, unless it is a platform you make yourself like Hurjet where you have all the rights and implementation possibilities.

The best is to stick to F16 as the air force has all the maintenance, crew, knowledge etc. etc. and we can install our own weaponry on them. Introducing a new type 4th generation is waste of money (better go for Russian or Chinese 5th generation in worst case)

 

[LegionnairE]

Lol there you are indeed right, F4 is 3rd generation.

Point is that at this moment you should not think about introducing another 4th generation aircraft, unless it is a platform you make yourself like Hurjet where you have all the rights and implementation possibilities.

The best is to stick to F16 as the air force has all the maintenance, crew, knowledge etc. etc. and we can install our own weaponry on them. Introducing a new type 4th generation is waste of money (better go for Russian or Chinese 5th generation in worst case)

We don't have access to a 5th generation fighter. Russian and Chinese platforms aren't reallistic options at this moment.

Also, threats have changed. We aren't just worried about Greece anymore. There's France and Israel. We need more fighters period.

40 F16s, even if the congress doesn't block the sale, aren't enough.

 

[Nutuk]

It's a stopgap.

It won't be enough anyway. Only MMU would change something for Turkey

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1447450878336770053

Turan Oghuz got it right.

S400/F35 is a smokescreen its one of the easiest issues to solve but.

Turkey and the USA have various geopolitical issues which is causing a clash. You can even say some date back decades even before Erdogan took power.

 

[Saithan]

Guys, your infighting isn't really going to solve the issue at hand.

Regardless of what has happened. It was given from the get go when TSK fucking opted for F35B and not F35A we were not going to get the damn planes before Israel. Who picked the F35A. Because we were part of the development project!

Even if Israel always gets the good stuff first it would not have taken so long before could have gotten F35A. But shit happened and Israel started lobbying against us, and a lot more shit happened.

So IMO not getting F35A was the biggest mistake because government politics really screwed us over on the projects.

What's done is done. I think what's important is to get Hürjet flying and building our own damn engine for Hürjet. Likewise with Atak with domestic engine. and so on.

Good news is that Korea (thanks to our Korean Mods information) has a transmission and engine that live up to TSK requirements. So I hope we can get the first 100 engines signed!

Of course I hope we don't have to spend too much time on redesigning Altay.

 

[LegionnairE]

It's a stopgap.

It won't be enough anyway. Only MMU would change something for Turkey

Best case scenario, MMU will be ready in 10 years, more than likely there's going to be delays.

We need at least 200 4+ gen fighters to make up for the 116 F35 we were supposed to get.

Something with low RCS, AESA radar and IRST.

Typhoon and Gripen-E are the best options.
It's not worth the logistical headaches to get just 40 Typhoons. 40 is a very low number.

I prefer Gripen because it's cheaper and we'll have the same engine on Hürjet so even easier logistics.

 

[Nutuk]

Seithan hit the nail directly on the head.

Jewish lobby is the keyword.

The anti Israeli personal stance of Erdogan is 90% of the issue.

 

[Saithan]

Best case scenario, MMU will be ready in 10 years, more than likely there's going to be delays.

We need at least 200 4+ gen fighters to make up for the 116 F35 we were supposed to get.

Something with low RCS, AESA radar and IRST.

Typhoon and Gripen-E are the best options.
It's not worth the logistical headaches to get just 40 Typhoons. 40 is a very low number.

I prefer Gripen because it's cheaper and we'll have the same engine on Hürjet so even easier logistics.

I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.

 

[Saithan]

Seithan hit the nail directly on the head.

Jewish lobby is the keyword.

The anti Israeli personal stance of Erdogan is 90% of the issue.

Government policies didn't really help in that regard either. Should have waited until we had the Jet. But once delivery was delayed, the outcome was pretty much given.

 

[LegionnairE]

I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.

It uses a similiar engine and that's where the similiarities end.

It's very early to talk about Hürjet's RCS as the plane doesn't exist yet. If all else are equal Hürjet might have a small advantage in RCS due to a lack of front canard. But much less performance and payload capacity.

We need to understand that Hürjet is first and foremost a trainer aircraft. Gripen is designed as a fighter from ground up.

And to be precise, I'm talking about Gripen-E. The latest and most advanced version.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.

Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.

 

[Saithan]

Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.

I was wondering if the nose section increased with 0,6m due to the AESA.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

It's very early to talk about Hürjet's RCS as the plane doesn't exist yet. If all else are equal Hürjet might have a small advantage in RCS due to a lack of front canard. But much less performance and payload capacity.

This topic has been discussed before. We will see the details and real dynamic features of Hurjet when the aircraft start to fly. The features stated at the moment are probably very modestly and can easily be exceeded with an 18000lb turbofan so you shouldn't make an early conclusion based on those range and speed values.

 

[LegionnairE]

Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.

If they design it so it can take off from TCG Anadolu, it will be more of a strike aircraft than a true fighter.

It will have to be very light to be able to take off from a 200m runway.

I was wondering if the nose section increased with 0,6m due to the AESA.

Still rather small.

can easily be exceeded with an 18000lb turbofan so you shouldn't make an early conclusion based on those range and speed values.

in newtons please? I'm not American lol

Gripen-E's F414-GE400 engine does about 98 kN wet. That's 22.000 lbf

A fighter version of Hürjet will probably have the same thrust.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

We need to understand that Hürjet is first and foremost a trainer aircraft. Gripen is designed as a fighter from ground up.

This aircraft has been designed with real combat missions in mind from the design stage. Requirements are being updated and necessary studies are being carried out in order to land and take off on the short runways. As I said, there is no point on landing and taking off to a runway with a training aircraft. This aircraft will of course participate in combat missions after taking off from the aircraft carrier/LHD or whatever you call her and therefore equipments and hardwares related with its mission will be integrated to Hürjet as well.

 

[Saithan]

The article mentioned that Hürjet will come in 4 variants, and since first flight is 2023, I believe they're going to make it because of the great significance it carries.

 

[LegionnairE]

This aircraft has been designed with real combat missions in mind from the design stage. Requirements are being updated and necessary studies are being carried out in order to land and take off on the short runways. As I said, there is no point on landing and taking off to a runway with a training aircraft. This aircraft will of course participate in combat missions after taking off from the aircraft carrier/LHD or whatever you call her and therefore equipments and hardwares related with its mission will be integrated to Hürjet as well.

You might be right, I don't know. No prototype exists yet so it's difficult to speculate what it's going to be.

All I can say is that it's going to take time before the design matures. And since Gripen-E uses the same engine and a mature fighter aircraft.

It would be logistically feasible to integrate a number of Gripens right now.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

in newtons please? I'm not American lol

Gripen-E's F414-GE400 engine does about 98 kN wet. That's 22.000 lbf

Gripen-C were powered with 18000lb turbofan and it has a max speed of 2Mach and a payload of almost 5,5ton so what?