Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

LegionnairE

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Introduction of a new type 4th generation fighter jet is probably the dumbest that we can do (unless it is our own product like Hurjet)
Israelis are so stupid... maintaining two types of 4th generation fighters like that. Idiots amirite?

Also who banned me? It seems my superiority has led to some controversy.
 

LegionnairE

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You really believe they would have given a TurAF that purged its gulenists F35s?
They were never going to give those jets to us, they were going to give them to their own men in our army.

TurAF was the primary target of Gulenists to infiltrate. Tell me if I am wrong but to my knowledge that was the most purged place after 15 july as well.

I cant understand how you guys believe in US rhetoric of S400s being a potential spyware to identify F-35s. Everyone already knows everything. China has already copied F-35. Both China and Russia hacked the plans of F-35 and know everything regarding the plane. There are already many theatres where Russia can/could use S400s and analyze F35. Turkey also suggested American personnel to inspect.

I really dont understand how some of you think. Turkey was eventually going to ditch USA. So a crisis like this was always bound to happen. World conjuncture points at regional powers gaining influence while global powers losing. You think we were always going to remain lapdogs of USA? Well, we would have to cede Eastern Anatolia, Northern Cyprus and Blue Homeland for that and never have our own defense industry.

F-35 was a bait on the hook. You are like a fish regretting not getting that bait. That worm was never going to be ours to begin with. So it doesnt matter how delicious that worm was.

Now Turkey made a smart diplomatical move by demanding F-16 Vipers. If they dont give us we will have diplomatical excuse for preferring others. If they give us then we will strengthen our air force until 2030.

The issue is not the so called "spy software" in S400 It's that they feel betrayed Turkey would cooperate with their enemy, Russia.
Which is ironic since they support PKK offshoots.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics behind thinking "F35 was bait" at the same time as "F16 block 70 will strengthen our air force" Do I need to explain to you that both are made by the same country? I'm utterly confused.


Look guys I'm onboard the anti-American hate wagon. I'm all in. But explain to me why we can't activate the S400 systems and why are we asking for F16s now?
We did a naughty thing by buying S400, we got slapped and we're going back to America now. :D
 
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Ardabas34

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The issue is not the so called "spy software" in S400 It's that they feel betrayed Turkey would cooperate with their enemy, Russia.
Which is ironic since they support PKK offshoots.

I don't understand the mental gymnastics behind thinking "F35 was bait" at the same time as "F16 block 70 will strengthen our air force" Do I need to explain to you that both are made by the same country? I'm utterly confused.


Look guys I'm onboard the anti-American hate wagon. I'm all in. But explain to me why we can't activate the S400 systems and why are we asking for F16s now?
We did a naughty thing by buying S400, we got slapped and we're going back to America now. :D
Except I am not saying ''we should be glad they didnt sell us F-35s! We are independent now!'' while on the other hand saying ''I hope they give us F-16 Vipers!''
I wish they sold us F-35s, all I am saying is that they were never going to anyway. Turkish air force has been left vulnerable for a decade as it relied on F-35s. I wish the transition to TFX would be smooth but the political conjuncture was screaming this turbulance was bound to happen.

F-35 right now is a strategical asset. It is a model for future fighter jets and the only proper gen-5 stealth jet on the market. They did give a lame ass excuse by saying S-400s are incompatible as they can be a spyware and study the profile of F-35 on radar as stealth is its primary feature.

Well F-16 vipers arent stealthy so there is no need to worry about S-400 radar figuring it out.

USA accused Turkey of fueling Russian defense industry(as if for all these years they didnt advocate for ''free market economy'' in all those third world countries) so we gave them a proposal of receiving F-16 vipers that can enable us to maintain the gap with Greece and if USA doesnt sell we will have a nice rhetoric against them.

They definitely didnt feel betrayed. Lets analyze what happened in chronological order.

0- June-July 2015: Erdogan calls on World that they will not tolerate a new state in the North of Syria and one month later PKK makes the Ceylanpinar attack and hence the so called ''solution process'' with PKK ends.
1- November 2015 Russian jet is shot down.
2- June 2016 Erdogan expresses regret for the shoot down of the Russian jet.
3- July 2016 the coup attempt happens and Vladimir Putin calls Erdogan out of solidarity before any Nato members.
4- 21 July 2016 Erdogan says the F-16 pilot that shot the Russian plane was a gulenist.
5- August 2016 Erdogan goes to St.Petersburg and the BBC commented that the summit, at which Erdoğan thanked Putin for his swift support during the coup attempt, ″unnerved the West″.
6- December 2016 Russian ambassador Andrei Karlov is assassinated by a gulenist.
7- December 2016 two countries initiate Astana Peace talks for Syria.
8- May 2017 Russia lifts the sanctions on Turkey.
9- September 2017 Turkey makes the S-400 deal.

Now along with this list I know two countries fight proxy wars in Syria and Libya. Libyan issue is not hot as I suspect both sides despite supporting opposite sides enjoy the status quo but in Syria both countries interests clash. For Nagorno-Karabakh I am pretty sure both were happy with how it all turned out.

Now all these above are the data we have as ordinary citizens. When you look at the chronology one thing is pretty clear. USA tried to spoil the relationships of Turkey-Russia both with Karlov assassination and jet shootdown yet Turkey and Russia still approached each other.

Buying a new weapon system is a mark of reorienting in foreign policy. Turkey didnt buy S-400 all of a sudden. It was a long coming development and it happened.
 

LegionnairE

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@Ardabas34 I see, we agree about the F35 then. We do need it. And since we don't have a time machine, I can't prove it to you but it seems to me that if we didn't buy the S400 we would get the plane.

Buying a new weapon system is a mark of reorienting in foreign policy. Turkey didnt buy S-400 all of a sudden. It was a long coming development and it happened.

It just seems to me that our government just didn't anticipate the amount of problems this would cause.
They thought that they could get away with it. Which is why they aren't activating the S400 system and not buying the second batch.


We piss off Russia, we buy S400. We piss off americans, we buy F16. (or we try lol) On either case our policy is appeasement
 

Nutuk

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Israelis are so stupid... maintaining two types of 4th generation fighters like that. Idiots amirite?

Also who banned me? It seems my superiority has led to some controversy.
We have / had too

We have F4 and F16 remember? But now that 5th generation aircraft are out, would it not be an Einstein deed to introduce another 4th generation?
 

LegionnairE

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We have / had too

We have F4 and F16 remember? But now that 5th generation aircraft are out, would it not be an Einstein deed to introduce another 4th generation?
F4 is 3rd generation :rolleyes:

And you realize that F16 Block 70 is 4th gen right?

Gripen-E and Eurofighter are 4+ platforms that bring in some 5th generation capabilities.
Reduced radar visibility, IRST, AESA radar, Electronic warfare capabilities. Honestly the only thing that's missing is stealth.
 
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Nutuk

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Lol there you are indeed right, F4 is 3rd generation.

Point is that at this moment you should not think about introducing another 4th generation aircraft, unless it is a platform you make yourself like Hurjet where you have all the rights and implementation possibilities.

The best is to stick to F16 as the air force has all the maintenance, crew, knowledge etc. etc. and we can install our own weaponry on them. Introducing a new type 4th generation is waste of money (better go for Russian or Chinese 5th generation in worst case)
 

LegionnairE

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Lol there you are indeed right, F4 is 3rd generation.

Point is that at this moment you should not think about introducing another 4th generation aircraft, unless it is a platform you make yourself like Hurjet where you have all the rights and implementation possibilities.

The best is to stick to F16 as the air force has all the maintenance, crew, knowledge etc. etc. and we can install our own weaponry on them. Introducing a new type 4th generation is waste of money (better go for Russian or Chinese 5th generation in worst case)
We don't have access to a 5th generation fighter. Russian and Chinese platforms aren't reallistic options at this moment.

Also, threats have changed. We aren't just worried about Greece anymore. There's France and Israel. We need more fighters period.

40 F16s, even if the congress doesn't block the sale, aren't enough.
 

Nutuk

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It's a stopgap.

It won't be enough anyway. Only MMU would change something for Turkey
 

Saithan

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Guys, your infighting isn't really going to solve the issue at hand.

Regardless of what has happened. It was given from the get go when TSK fucking opted for F35B and not F35A we were not going to get the damn planes before Israel. Who picked the F35A. Because we were part of the development project!

Even if Israel always gets the good stuff first it would not have taken so long before could have gotten F35A. But shit happened and Israel started lobbying against us, and a lot more shit happened.

So IMO not getting F35A was the biggest mistake because government politics really screwed us over on the projects.

What's done is done. I think what's important is to get Hürjet flying and building our own damn engine for Hürjet. Likewise with Atak with domestic engine. and so on.

Good news is that Korea (thanks to our Korean Mods information) has a transmission and engine that live up to TSK requirements. So I hope we can get the first 100 engines signed!

Of course I hope we don't have to spend too much time on redesigning Altay.
 

LegionnairE

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It's a stopgap.

It won't be enough anyway. Only MMU would change something for Turkey
Best case scenario, MMU will be ready in 10 years, more than likely there's going to be delays.

We need at least 200 4+ gen fighters to make up for the 116 F35 we were supposed to get.

Something with low RCS, AESA radar and IRST.

Typhoon and Gripen-E are the best options.
It's not worth the logistical headaches to get just 40 Typhoons. 40 is a very low number.

I prefer Gripen because it's cheaper and we'll have the same engine on Hürjet so even easier logistics.
 
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Nutuk

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Seithan hit the nail directly on the head.

Jewish lobby is the keyword.

The anti Israeli personal stance of Erdogan is 90% of the issue.
 

Saithan

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Best case scenario, MMU will be ready in 10 years, more than likely there's going to be delays.

We need at least 200 4+ gen fighters to make up for the 116 F35 we were supposed to get.

Something with low RCS, AESA radar and IRST.

Typhoon and Gripen-E are the best options.
It's not worth the logistical headaches to get just 40 Typhoons. 40 is a very low number.

I prefer Gripen because it's cheaper and we'll have the same engine on Hürjet so even easier logistics.
I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.
 

Saithan

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Seithan hit the nail directly on the head.

Jewish lobby is the keyword.

The anti Israeli personal stance of Erdogan is 90% of the issue.
Government policies didn't really help in that regard either. Should have waited until we had the Jet. But once delivery was delayed, the outcome was pretty much given.
 

LegionnairE

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I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.
It uses a similiar engine and that's where the similiarities end.

It's very early to talk about Hürjet's RCS as the plane doesn't exist yet. If all else are equal Hürjet might have a small advantage in RCS due to a lack of front canard. But much less performance and payload capacity.

We need to understand that Hürjet is first and foremost a trainer aircraft. Gripen is designed as a fighter from ground up.

And to be precise, I'm talking about Gripen-E. The latest and most advanced version.
 

Cabatli_53

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I read an article (can't remember by which turkish defence magazine), but Hürjet was compared to Gripen due to it's lower RCS and such, despite being a Light jet. The advantage of Hürjet would be that it's modern.


Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.
 

Saithan

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Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.
I was wondering if the nose section increased with 0,6m due to the AESA.
 

Cabatli_53

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It's very early to talk about Hürjet's RCS as the plane doesn't exist yet. If all else are equal Hürjet might have a small advantage in RCS due to a lack of front canard. But much less performance and payload capacity.

This topic has been discussed before. We will see the details and real dynamic features of Hurjet when the aircraft start to fly. The features stated at the moment are probably very modestly and can easily be exceeded with an 18000lb turbofan so you shouldn't make an early conclusion based on those range and speed values.
 

LegionnairE

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Hürjet's features have been updated and this update was probably shaped after the work done for a version of Hürjet that can land and take off from the aircraft carrier. This aircraft is being developed from the design stage as considering real combat missions. Nobody wants to take off and land on an aircraft carrier with a trainer aircraft. Trainer variant will be the revealed first but later, Hurjet will evolve to a real fighter.

Its height, which was 13 meters before, is now 13.6 meters. The wingspan was reduced from 9.8m to 9.5m. Wing area of 24m2 was increased to 35m2. The Hürjet prototype we will probably see, will be very different from the mock-up on display. With the AESA radar, air-to-air missiles, pods and self-protection systems developed, it will become a platform that can effectively respond to the need for intermediate solutions on the way to TfX.
If they design it so it can take off from TCG Anadolu, it will be more of a strike aircraft than a true fighter.

It will have to be very light to be able to take off from a 200m runway.
I was wondering if the nose section increased with 0,6m due to the AESA.
Still rather small.
can easily be exceeded with an 18000lb turbofan so you shouldn't make an early conclusion based on those range and speed values.
in newtons please? I'm not American lol

Gripen-E's F414-GE400 engine does about 98 kN wet. That's 22.000 lbf

A fighter version of Hürjet will probably have the same thrust.
 
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