Air-Force Turkey asks U.S. to buy 40 F-16 jets to upgrade Air Force

[Manomed]

İBRAHİM SÜNNETCİ
"I think this may be a situation like the US offered Patriot, so we were unwilling at the time, and they made an offer that suited our request. The interesting detail here is that, in my opinion, the US has given the green light to use the money paid for the F-35. It's actually surprised me. In this case, both the Main Contractor and the US Government have said ok... If the project is realized, our ties with the F-35 will be officially over."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449715157719031813

So we are kneeling against US rest in piece Turkish navy air force

 

[Combat-Master]

F-16V	F-16 OZGUR

 

[Tabmachine]

Why doesn't Turkey buy chinese fighter jets? Those are not under CAATSA correct? China has been desperate to sell some export jets.

 

[Cypro]

İBRAHİM SÜNNETCİ
"I think this may be a situation like the US offered Patriot, so we were unwilling at the time, and they made an offer that suited our request. The interesting detail here is that, in my opinion, the US has given the green light to use the money paid for the F-35. It's actually surprised me. In this case, both the Main Contractor and the US Government have said ok... If the project is realized, our ties with the F-35 will be officially over."

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1449715157719031813

That was always the way out of this issue since S400 deal signed, I always believed that after sometime money will be used to buy new equipment (most logical one was F16, so glad to hear this deal). But this does not mean F35 will never come to Turkey. Current political and strategic relations just postponed F35 and both US and Turkey has solid reasons for not trusting each other. After some years we will see that the US will change middle east policy, Turkey will stop acting like one guy ( with caprice) New threats, new alignments will happen then naturally they would get closer again or F35 will lose its strategic advantage so Turkey will get them eventually.

Just think, would TSK thought that they would get F16 back in 1975? After embargoes etc.. I believe it is just delayed.. eventually Turkey will pack up S400 and send them to Azerbaijan or elsewhere and get F35 against Russia, because Russia is natural rival of Turkey.

 

[Tabmachine]

That was always the way out of this issue since S400 deal signed, I always believed that after sometime money will be used to buy new equipment (most logical one was F16, so glad to hear this deal). But this does not mean F35 will never come to Turkey. Current political and strategic relations just postponed F35 and both US and Turkey has solid reasons for not trusting each other. After some years we will see that the US will change middle east policy, Turkey will stop acting like one guy ( with caprice) New threats, new alignments will happen then naturally they would get closer again or F35 will lose its strategic advantage so Turkey will get them eventually.

Just think, would TSK thought that they would get F16 back in 1975? After embargoes etc.. I believe it is just delayed.. eventually Turkey will pack up S400 and send them to Azerbaijan or elsewhere and get F35 against Russia, because Russia is natural rival of Turkey.

Russia is the historical rival yes, but the western bloc is more of a threat to Turkey today. America is currently literally pursuing a containment strategy against Turkey with the kurds. They are also aligned with the Greeks in the Mediterranean. Turkey will get the F35 once newer technologies given to countries like Israel render it no longer a technological equalizer between those countries and Turkey.

I think you are treating the situation as cyclical where there will be a return to a standard form, but the reality is that the strategic alignment that was formed in the previous half-century was a product of a set of geopolitical factors which have now changed. Imo the chief of these factors is that Turkey today with the development of its military industrial complex, and demonstrated success in foreign engagement is now showing the potential to be a regional power. and a threat to the major US military outpost in the region: Israel. The second is the conclusion of the concern with the soviet threat, as the great power rivalry has now shifted to the south pacific.

 

[Test7]

Why doesn't Turkey buy chinese fighter jets? Those are not under CAATSA correct? China has been desperate to sell some export jets.

• Not compatible with NATO system
• Political

 

[Ryder]

Why doesn't Turkey buy chinese fighter jets? Those are not under CAATSA correct? China has been desperate to sell some export jets.

China uses Russian infanstructure and tech.

Also Turkey's military structure is NATO no chance of operating Russian or Chinese jets.

Only options is American or European like the Rafale, Typhoon or the Gripen or they have to go with their own Jets. A Turkish made jet will still go by Nato operational capabilities.

 

[Cypro]

Russia is the historical rival yes, but the western bloc is more of a threat to Turkey today. America is currently literally pursuing a containment strategy against Turkey with the kurds. They are also aligned with the Greeks in the Mediterranean. Turkey will get the F35 once newer technologies given to countries like Israel render it no longer a technological equalizer between those countries and Turkey.

I think you are treating the situation as cyclical where there will be a return to a standard form, but the reality is that the strategic alignment that was formed in the previous half-century was a product of a set of geopolitical factors which have now changed. Imo the chief of these factors is that Turkey today with the development of its military industrial complex, and demonstrated success in foreign engagement is now showing the potential to be a regional power. and a threat to the major US military outpost in the region: Israel. The second is the conclusion of the concern with the soviet threat, as the great power rivalry has now shifted to the south pacific.

Western bloc, eastern bloc, arabs, chinese, europeans etc. it does not matter.. everyone is just trying to protect their own interests.. And interests always changes.. One day oil become a useless commodity and interest will shift again. Looking the world from AKP's eyes and not trying to understand what others think is the main problem in Turkey. "Turkey is surrounded by enemies", "west tries to split Turkey into small pieces", Greeks want Istanbul, tiny Armenians want Eastern Turkey bla bla bla. A mind shaped with 200 year old fears.. In reality if you look the map, Turkey is the most proactive country, interfering all neighbours.. threatening israel, syria, iraq, greece, egypt, arabs etc... Who shouts everyday that Jerusalem is ours, Sisi is a dictator long live rabia, europeans are fcking nazis... Self criticism is a bless

I am proud to be a Turk and living in a brother country to Turkey but even I feel threatened by Turkey and her policies which try to shape and change my lifestyle / future. And USA is still superpower of this planet and policing around as always, It is trying to contain every country who tries to change balance of power, they do it to china, russia and even sometimes European countries like France, don't take it personal. Besides USA is not a single headed evil country it has many faces and many strategies. They are trying to contain Iran, Syria, Russia, I don't believe supporting kurds is only for creating trouble to Turkey but Turkey takes everything personal and unfriend with EVERYONE.. Beloved Turkish President is very good at creating enemies. Countries have no friends but interests.. And interests tend to change.. For example, Israel was undermining every move of South Cyprus until 2009, they never been friends but love of Erdogan get them closer.

Turkey is an 80+ million country with very capable military, no other country have power to divide it into small pieces (except herself). That Evil west couldn't even divide tiny Syria. And Turkey naturally belongs to Western bloc if not poisoned by ignorants. If there was no problem in Aegean or Cyprus, problems with NATO and EU would instantly be solved.. And there is another thing which is called religion of peace.. they go freely to EU, then try to change EU to adapt their backward minds, complain about EU and their lifestyle.. then become suicide bomber etc.. why did you go there in the first place? if you want to live in your backward traditions... Oh because Europeans fucked middle east so it is not safe place to live... But if you want to change your country you can do it.. Look Turkey.. is it the Europeans making it like this.. no.

I believe in 10 years things will change again and we will see F35s on TCG Anadolu & Trakya.. Turkey will sell or sent S400 to somewhere else. USA need a powerful democratic western minded country next to middle east and Russia. Greece or Israel cannot replace Turkey, West needs Turkey and Turkey needs west and it won't change, now it is just a temporary period of mistrust. In 2035, Turkish Air force, 120 F16 V, 100 F16 Özgür, 50 TFX and 36 F35B 60 F35A and plenty of Armed Hurjet and Armed UAVs. In 2040 probably TFX will replace all F16s

 

[what]

Russia is the historical rival yes, but the western bloc is more of a threat to Turkey today. America is currently literally pursuing a containment strategy against Turkey with the kurds. They are also aligned with the Greeks in the Mediterranean. Turkey will get the F35 once newer technologies given to countries like Israel render it no longer a technological equalizer between those countries and Turkey.

I think you are treating the situation as cyclical where there will be a return to a standard form, but the reality is that the strategic alignment that was formed in the previous half-century was a product of a set of geopolitical factors which have now changed. Imo the chief of these factors is that Turkey today with the development of its military industrial complex, and demonstrated success in foreign engagement is now showing the potential to be a regional power. and a threat to the major US military outpost in the region: Israel. The second is the conclusion of the concern with the soviet threat, as the great power rivalry has now shifted to the south pacific.

No, simply no. The west it Turkeys biggest trade and technology partner. Even with the worst possible President (for the west/EU/US) we still have billions of € in investment, good relations with Germany, Spain, UK and more.

Where's the cycle you are speaking about? The cycle where France and the Ottomans were aligned for a century? The cycle where the west and Turkey started a war against the Russians? Do I have to mention German-Turkish relations? Turkey is no Iran, no disposable MENA country to the west. Otherwise they would have done much worse in the last years.

On top of that: the last decade was a decade of populists and things are slowly changing in Europe with more and more social democratic government again in key governments and hopefully in Turkey too. We will see a quick reset of the relations.

I still bet my ass that we're going to get the F35 late but eventually we will, the question is if we will still want it at that point.

 

[TheInsider]

Listen from 8:00 He is politely reminding either the US cooperates on F-16 modernization or we will do it ourselves.

 

[Stuka]

"I asked @StateDeptSpox if US can confirm #Turkish President Erdogan’s comments saying Washington made a proposal to Ankara for the sale of the F-16s, he declined to confirm that but added: “The United States has not made any financing offers on Turkey’s F-16 request”

@StateDeptSpox adds that U.S. Department of Defense is engaged in dispute resolution discussions with #Turkey on the F-35 -- Ankara had been removed from the program over its purchase of the Russia S-400 missile defense systems"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1450179119883472899

 

[Turko]

I don't mind Turkey asking F-16

There is no redundant F-16s . They are always welcome.

 

[Stuka]

I don't mind Turkey asking F-16

There is no redundant F-16s . They are always welcome.

Especially if you can add some GE-F110 Engines for TF-X in to the Contract.

 

[Tabmachine]

No, simply no. The west it Turkeys biggest trade and technology partner. Even with the worst possible President (for the west/EU/US) we still have billions of € in investment, good relations with Germany, Spain, UK and more.

Where's the cycle you are speaking about? The cycle where France and the Ottomans were aligned for a century? The cycle where the west and Turkey started a war against the Russians? Do I have to mention German-Turkish relations? Turkey is no Iran, no disposable MENA country to the west. Otherwise they would have done much worse in the last years.

On top of that: the last decade was a decade of populists and things are slowly changing in Europe with more and more social democratic government again in key governments and hopefully in Turkey too. We will see a quick reset of the relations.

I still bet my ass that we're going to get the F35 late but eventually we will, the question is if we will still want it at that point.

I was not saying the relations are cyclical myself, i was referring to the point made the person I was responding to. (Crypto I believe)

Sure Turkey will be able to have an excellent relationship with the western bloc so long as it does not become too powerful, so long as it relinquishes mavi vatan, so long as it does not threaten the hegemony in africa. If you want to be japan you can be, if you want to be what japan wishes it was you go your own way. You can not progress in a way which materially changes the status quo world order without having to defeat someone who will inevitably try to stop you. Power is never relinquished except by defeat, power is never gained except by force.

 

[Tabmachine]

Western bloc, eastern bloc, arabs, chinese, europeans etc. it does not matter.. everyone is just trying to protect their own interests.. And interests always changes.. One day oil become a useless commodity and interest will shift again. Looking the world from AKP's eyes and not trying to understand what others think is the main problem in Turkey. "Turkey is surrounded by enemies", "west tries to split Turkey into small pieces", Greeks want Istanbul, tiny Armenians want Eastern Turkey bla bla bla. A mind shaped with 200 year old fears.. In reality if you look the map, Turkey is the most proactive country, interfering all neighbours.. threatening israel, syria, iraq, greece, egypt, arabs etc... Who shouts everyday that Jerusalem is ours, Sisi is a dictator long live rabia, europeans are fcking nazis... Self criticism is a bless

I am proud to be a Turk and living in a brother country to Turkey but even I feel threatened by Turkey and her policies which try to shape and change my lifestyle / future. And USA is still superpower of this planet and policing around as always, It is trying to contain every country who tries to change balance of power, they do it to china, russia and even sometimes European countries like France, don't take it personal. Besides USA is not a single headed evil country it has many faces and many strategies. They are trying to contain Iran, Syria, Russia, I don't believe supporting kurds is only for creating trouble to Turkey but Turkey takes everything personal and unfriend with EVERYONE.. Beloved Turkish President is very good at creating enemies. Countries have no friends but interests.. And interests tend to change.. For example, Israel was undermining every move of South Cyprus until 2009, they never been friends but love of Erdogan get them closer.

Turkey is an 80+ million country with very capable military, no other country have power to divide it into small pieces (except herself). That Evil west couldn't even divide tiny Syria. And Turkey naturally belongs to Western bloc if not poisoned by ignorants. If there was no problem in Aegean or Cyprus, problems with NATO and EU would instantly be solved.. And there is another thing which is called religion of peace.. they go freely to EU, then try to change EU to adapt their backward minds, complain about EU and their lifestyle.. then become suicide bomber etc.. why did you go there in the first place? if you want to live in your backward traditions... Oh because Europeans fucked middle east so it is not safe place to live... But if you want to change your country you can do it.. Look Turkey.. is it the Europeans making it like this.. no.

I believe in 10 years things will change again and we will see F35s on TCG Anadolu & Trakya.. Turkey will sell or sent S400 to somewhere else. USA need a powerful democratic western minded country next to middle east and Russia. Greece or Israel cannot replace Turkey, West needs Turkey and Turkey needs west and it won't change, now it is just a temporary period of mistrust. In 2035, Turkish Air force, 120 F16 V, 100 F16 Özgür, 50 TFX and 36 F35B 60 F35A and plenty of Armed Hurjet and Armed UAVs. In 2040 probably TFX will replace all F16s

I mean within your own intellectual milieu Islamism is not the only sovereigntist/eastern-centric viewpoint, there is also the Eurasianists (Cem Gurdeniz et al). So it doesn't have to be reduced to just Islamism, though that is a significant contributor. I wont claim to know better than you but from my vantage point Turkey definitely seems to be in a precarious position due to its posession of the bosphorus, proximity to israel etc. Is everyone an enemy? Well I dont see alot of friends in the immediate vicinity. edit: (I forgot to consider the balkans, but Albania / Bosnia arent very consequential for now)

It's true that Turkey is not the only country being held down, but does that make a difference? The kurds for example are definitely intended to serve as a loyal servant against everyone in the region but that doesn't change the fact that turkey is implicated in that strategy, not to mention that Turkey has the most to lose geographically. (area proclaimed as kurdistan within Turkeys borders)

 

[Anastasius]

I was not saying the relations are cyclical myself, i was referring to the point made the person I was responding to. (Crypto I believe)

Sure Turkey will be able to have an excellent relationship with the western bloc so long as it does not become too powerful, so long as it relinquishes mavi vatan, so long as it does not threaten the hegemony in africa. If you want to be japan you can be, if you want to be what japan wishes it was you go your own way. You can not progress in a way which materially changes the status quo world order without having to defeat someone who will inevitably try to stop you. Power is never relinquished except by defeat, power is never gained except by force.

Do you think the US would tolerate France becoming too powerful? Germany? Spain? Italy? Poland? Britain? Turkey isn't unique in that regard. Hell, there is no reason for Turkey to relinquish Mavi Vatan. The much talked-about military agreement between Greece and France? It specifically excludes any EEZ disputes. That's how negotiations work, you make your declaration and then play. The Western bloc bitched a whole lot about the Cyprus operation but there's also a whole lot of documentation on behind-the-scenes support provided to Turkey, so it's not like they have some axe to grind against Turkey and Turkey alone.

Sure, Turkey could tell everyone to bugger off and enjoy "power"...in absolute poverty, heading towards the point where the average Turk would gladly give up all the drones in the world and aspirations of a nuclear program just so they could live in a nation where the economy isn't in the gutter and rule of law still means something. That's not power, that's playing the tough guy, getting punched in the face and then sputtering through a bleeding mouth and missing teeth that "yeah, well, at least I showed them".

And Japan is a bad example considering that most Turks would probably give their left hand if it meant that Turkey would become more like Japan. Hell, I'd give up both arms if it meant Azerbaijan could be more like Japan.

 

[Lool]

Thoughts?
Will the USA actually agree to transferring the 1 billion dollars of Turkey to revamp their F16s or not?

Turkey to recoup money paid to US for F-35s ‘one way or another’

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan expressed on Thursday his belief that Turkey and the United States will make progress in talks for the sale of F-16 fighter...

www.dailysabah.com

 

[TheInsider]

I don't think the US will pay any money to us. At best those funds will be used for F-16s and at worst the US will sit on the money.

 

[Stuka]

Thoughts?
Will the USA actually agree to transferring the 1 billion dollars of Turkey to revamp their F16s or not?

Turkey to recoup money paid to US for F-35s ‘one way or another’

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan expressed on Thursday his belief that Turkey and the United States will make progress in talks for the sale of F-16 fighter...

www.dailysabah.com

Realistically, if the US is keen on isolating Turkey the 1 Billion will be the least of Turkeys problems.

 

[TheInsider]

True but the US has a lot of things to lose in the long term like its world hegemony. Once it is gone countries will get in line to kick the US in the balls. On the other hand, TR will be here and can crush a PKK state in Syria or Greek ambitions anytime we are not going anywhere.

How do you kill a beast? By tiring it. Keeping EU safe with US taxpayer's money, trying to keep the failed state of Greece alive. Trying to create a PKK state. Trying to keep the Armenian lobby happy. Financing Israel while same Israel cooperates with China in tech investments even selling its biggest port to a Chinese firm. Those things come together and this is tiring for the US. That is why the US is retreating from Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., and trying to consolidate its power against its No:1 competitor. The US has reached its peak and doesn't have the ability to control any more than this. Now it has to limit and wisely pick its involvements. It is not in a condition to swing that huge sledgehammer carelessly as it is in the early 2000s.