TR Turkic- Military culture thread

[Ardabas34]

The first followers of Osman were called Nöker, a Mongolian word for companion. Keep that in mind.

 

[LegioXLupus]

Ottomans had no problem emphasising their Mongol heritage or origins. Ottomans are Oghuz Turks but had no problem empahsising their Tatar and Mongol origins too.

I do find it sinister when people attempt to distance Turkic dynasties from there Turkic origins by means of adding X "ized" Turks or using sub branch tribal names when ised fails.

This seems to be a common trend over the past 5 years when you look at Wikipedia every Turkic empire or dynasty is referred to as Turko-somethingised when these dynasties took pride of there Turko-Mongol heritage.

Samething applies for weapons of war.

 

[Ryder]

I do find it sinister when people attempt to distance Turkic dynasties from there Turkic origins by means of adding X "ized" Turks or using sub branch tribal names when ised fails.

This seems to be a common trend over the past 5 years when you look at Wikipedia every Turkic empire or dynasty is referred to as Turko-somethingised when these dynasties took pride of there Turko-Mongol heritage.

Samething applies for weapons of war.

Mamluks and their history is being hijacked.

Baybars is now being presented as an Egyptian or a Circassian sometimes a slav.

Also Albanians claim Ataturk was albanian.

Our history is being air brushed but people can keep on watching ertugurl and believing in dumb myths.

 

[Ryder]

Mughal Empire of Babur is Turkic you still have people arguing otherwise. Same for the Safavids who from Turkoman origins.

 

[Ryder]

The memoirs of the first Mughal emperor Babur (r. 1526–30) were translated from Chaghatay Turkish
into Persian at Akbar’s instruction, and the first illustrated edition was presented to the emperor in 1589. This work and two additional folios from this manuscript are the earliest known works signed by Farrukh Beg, who already exhibits his prodigious talent for creating landscapes of the imagination. Here, the forbidding rocky foreshore leads to a tented encampment of bizarre complexity. These elements enhance the intoxicating mood that is the theme, which is suggested by the unsteady figure of Babur on horseback carrying a torch standard. Servants on foot follow behind him, one carrying a lantern, the other a wine bottle. Babur recalled the incident in his memoirs, the Baburnama: “Very drunk I must have been, for when they told me the next day that we galloped loose-rein into the camp, carrying torches, I could not recall it in the least.”

 

[Ryder]

Babur going to war while being drunk.

What a chad.

 

[Ryder]

Why didnt the Ottomans go and conquer or colonise the New World.

Lots of debates but this video gives a good non bias perspective.

Also to add Barbarossa Hayreddin requested the Sultan and the higher ups to send expeditions into the Americas to challenge both Spain and Portugal.

But higher ups said no as the focus was on the Meditereanen Sea.

 

[Nilgiri]

Why didnt the Ottomans go and conquer or colonise the New World.

Lots of debates but this video gives a good non bias perspective.

Also to add Barbarossa Hayreddin requested the Sultan and the higher ups to send expeditions into the Americas to challenge both Spain and Portugal.

But higher ups said no as the focus was on the Meditereanen Sea.

Tbh I can see why ottoman higher ups rejected it. The (already thassalocratic) empire is lot larger and beset with lot more issues (from their perspective)...compared to city states like Genoa (where C. Colombo was from) and Venice....and "medium sized" yet aspirational kingdoms (like Spain and Portugal) that wanted to become more thassalocratic as there was no real easy land in environs to expand into anymore after reconquista.

It is matter of psychology and context riding in elite lot of time that influences the next decisions in 100+ year timeframes...and then you as larger group are stuck with opportunity costs downroad.

This is quite fascinating thing in of itself in studying civilisations....how they form, rise, fall etc.

 

[Manomed]

Persians are stealing our history while we are not embracing our history Its just funny to see all of those Iranians claiming every turkish beylik and dynasty

 

[Ryder]

Persians are stealing our history while we are not embracing our history Its just funny to see all of those Iranians claiming every turkish beylik and dynasty

They trying to cope about it by calling them persianised. They are also calling the Ottomans a Persianised dynasty.

The Elites may have taken persian culture or spoke Persian but the Average Turk spoke Turkic. Military of the Ghaznavids, Seljuks, Timurids and Babur along with the Ottomans a lot of the soldiers spoke Turkic.

The reason why we adopt foreign cultures when ruling other lands ia due to political reasons to make our rule easier not because the Arabs, Persians, Europeans or the Chinese were superior. Its political.

But Persians make it out that the Turks embraced Persian civilisation because the Persians were superior which is BS.

Turks like the Mongols were nomads hence why they had no problem in taking other cultures and customs. Their appreciation showed a degree of tolerance.

 

[Ryder]

Tbh I can see why ottoman higher ups rejected it. The (already thassalocratic) empire is lot larger and beset with lot more issues (from their perspective)...compared to city states like Genoa (where C. Colombo was from) and Venice....and "medium sized" yet aspirational kingdoms (like Spain and Portugal) that wanted to become more thassalocratic as there was no real easy land in environs to expand into anymore after reconquista.

It is matter of psychology and context riding in elite lot of time that influences the next decisions in 100+ year timeframes...and then you as larger group are stuck with opportunity costs downroad.

This is quite fascinating thing in of itself in studying civilisations....how they form, rise, fall etc.

If the Ottomans were interested in the Americas their gateway was Morocco.

Ottomans took Fez and and chunks of Morocco until we withdrew. Morocco was a tough nut to crack a lot of the Amazigh tribes were fearsome warriors that gave headaches to a lot of empires. You know Moroccans were not going to surrender without a fight. Our relationship with them was complicated as worked together with them then we clashed. At times they won against us and we won them.

As the Ottomans withdrew the Moroccans most of the time clashed with Ottoman Algeria not the Empire itself. Ottoman Algeria had its own leader, army and navy.

You could say that the Algerians and Moroccans have been clashing for centuries which continues today. Its a conflict that confuses me as you know Algerians and Moroccans are like siblings

 

[Manomed]

They trying to cope about it by calling them persianised. They are also calling the Ottomans a Persianised dynasty.

The Elites may have taken persian culture or spoke Persian but the Average Turk spoke Turkic. Military of the Ghaznavids, Seljuks, Timurids and Babur along with the Ottomans a lot of the soldiers spoke Turkic.

The reason why we adopt foreign cultures when ruling other lands ia due to political reasons to make our rule easier not because the Arabs, Persians, Europeans or the Chinese were superior. Its political.

But Persians make it out that the Turks embraced Persian civilisation because the Persians were superior which is BS.

Turks like the Mongols were nomads hence why they had no problem in taking other cultures and customs. Their appreciation showed a degree of tolerance.

Im sick of seeing Iranians changing every wikipedia article tbh persian Influence is cringe we should have never adopted their culture This is why I dislike ottomans most of the time

 

[Manomed]

Persians also Influenced central asian turks as well I call this persian virus It will Infect you and make you forgot your culture

 

[Ryder]

Im sick of seeing Iranians changing every wikipedia article tbh persian Influence is cringe we should have never adopted their culture This is why I dislike ottomans most of the time

Not just the Ottomans to be honest the Seljuks, Ghaznavids, Timurids and Baburs Empire also took up Persian culture. Timur spoke Persian he communicated with Bayezid by using Persian.

 

[Ryder]

Mughal Empire replaced Chagatai with Persian.

Safavids used Azerbaijani until Shah Abbas replaced it with Persian.

Ottomans were not the only ones.

 

[Nilgiri]

Not just the Ottomans to be honest the Seljuks, Ghaznavids, Timurids and Baburs Empire also took up Persian culture. Timur spoke Persian he communicated with Bayezid by using Persian.

Issue like you mention is ruling elite need to integrate with the barons (who handle larger peasantry etc). Latter group is far larger and more invested in the country in basic monetary and conscription terms etc...that pays for and protects all the ruling class.

The larger population once you leave central asia are indo-european language speaking (i.e stretching from roughly mesopotamia all the way to ganges delta).

Thus this has its own gravity if you will for ruling elite to shift to. Persian (as the choice for this indo-european) for number of reasons fit this the best....as it was largest example of culture integrated during rashidun time for example (that was significantly different enough and at scale compared to semitic Arabic language i.e it was first real example to harness for this process and it thus carried legacy in the centuries to follow).

Same thing happened with the Mongols....they were progressively sinicized (even as early as during conquest of Song by Kublai et al)....doesn't mean the mongols themselves (or Yuan dynasty) stopped being mongolic.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

If the Ottomans were interested in the Americas their gateway was Morocco.

Ottomans took Fez and and chunks of Morocco until we withdrew. Morocco was a tough nut to crack a lot of the Amazigh tribes were fearsome warriors that gave headaches to a lot of empires. You know Moroccans were not going to surrender without a fight. Our relationship with them was complicated as worked together with them then we clashed. At times they won against us and we won them.

As the Ottomans withdrew the Moroccans most of the time clashed with Ottoman Algeria not the Empire itself. Ottoman Algeria had its own leader, army and navy.

You could say that the Algerians and Moroccans have been clashing for centuries which continues today. Its a conflict that confuses me as you know Algerians and Moroccans are like siblings

The history between morocco and turkey have been there aswell as our brothers in algeria. If i remember right the ottomans supplied us with cannons against the Portuguese, do you know about this incident?

 

[Ryder]

The history between morocco and turkey have been there aswell as our brothers in algeria. If i remember right the ottomans supplied us with cannons against the Portuguese, do you know about this incident?

The Battle of three kings i think. Where Morocco killed Portuguese King Sebastian.

 

[Ryder]

Issue like you mention is ruling elite need to integrate with the barons (who handle larger peasantry etc). Latter group is far larger and more invested in the country in basic monetary and conscription terms etc...that pays for and protects all the ruling class.

The larger population once you leave central asia are indo-european language speaking (i.e stretching from roughly mesopotamia all the way to ganges delta).

Thus this has its own gravity if you will for ruling elite to shift to. Persian (as the choice for this indo-european) for number of reasons fit this the best....as it was largest example of culture integrated during rashidun time for example (that was significantly different enough and at scale compared to semitic Arabic language i.e it was first real example to harness for this process and it thus carried legacy in the centuries to follow).

Same thing happened with the Mongols....they were progressively sinicized (even as early as during conquest of Song by Kublai et al)....doesn't mean the mongols themselves (or Yuan dynasty) stopped being mongolic.

Yes I agree.

A lot of people forget that conquerors usually take up the local culture.

Ummayads despite being Arab based themselves in Syria. Syria was really diverse. Abbassids based themselves in Iraq hence the Persian and Mesopotamian influence on the Caliphate.

Interesting thing is how the Rashidun under Ali moved the capital from Madinah to Kufa.

Ottoman Empire was once the Anatolian heartland beginning from Sogut and moving to Bursa before they moved their capital to the Balkans.

 

[Ryder]

Ottomans and Early period of the Republic of Turkiye all loved drip.

Honestly I really like uniforms of the past. They really stand out and look beautiful. They really commanded respect.