TR Turkic- Military culture thread

[Manomed]

View attachment 35011

Battle of Malazgirt in 1071. The Turks make Anatolia their home by vanquishing the Byzantine army

My favorite Illustration from Battle of Myriokephalon

 

[Ryder]

View attachment 35012
My favorite Illustration from Battle of Myriokephalon

Byzantines tried to push the Turks out of Anatolia with Crusader help.

They failed hard. Funny how people overlook this aspect of how the Crusades happened. It happened because the Byzantines begged for help against the Seljuk Turk onslaught. Seljuk Turks already reached their capital so the Eastern Roman Empire appealed for help from the Pope. So the Pope called for a crusade. Just when the crusades were called The Seljuk Empire split into many different sultanates or atabegs.

The Fatimids even teamed up with crusaders to hit the Turks.

 

[Ryder]

Ottoman Wars in Europe.

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1458283742313725960

Something interesting on why the Ottomans blitzed their enemies due to their ulitisation of gunpowder while their enemies held onto warfare traditions that were obsolete.

 

[Ryder]

Same old mistake which the Ottomans repeated themselves in the 1800s as they held onto to a type of warfare that was backwards compared to the new warfare brought on by the Industrial Revolution.

 

[Manomed]

We have remained by the power of God, and by his power we have succeeded and are.
There is no doubt that we are God's soldiers on earth; He sends us against those whom he wants to inflict his wrath on. Let the events be a lesson for you and let our word be your advice. We destroyed many people, we left many children without ancestors, we changed the surface of the earth and turned it upside down; you have to flee, we have to catch those who escape, there is no escape from our sword for you; Wherever you are, our arrows catch up with you, our horses run more than any horse, and our arrows pierce all the trenches, our sword lands like lightning where it lands, our minds are as strong as mountains, our numbers are as many as sand; Those who ask for mercy from us will attain salvation, and those who attempt war with us will eventually regret it.
You call us unbelievers, we call you fasiq. We have been afflicted on you by God, who regulates and ordains all works. The west and east of the earth are in our hands, you cannot escape anywhere.”

Hulagu han


Based moment @Tonyukuk @Nein2.0(Nomad)

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1377382472321671168

Germans made the Ottomans give up some territory to the Bulgarians. Just so the Bulgarians join the Central Powers.

Our so called "Ally".

After ww1 the land went to Greece.

Thanks "Germany"

 

[Ryder]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1196673169328721920

Nader Shah overtime became more insane and cruel which would ultimately be the end of his reign.

He blinded his heir and purged his military from officers to soldiers.

 

[Manomed]

TLDR Tugrul Beg takes caliphs daughter and flexes on the arabs
"First we took your property, your land, your reign
then your caliphs daughter"

Tuğrul bey was coming to the caliph with his army. The caliph was in a great panic. After all, the Turks were not Arabs, and they were also considered Mewali.
Seljuk Sultan Tugrul Bey entered Iraq with a large army on the pretext of going on a pilgrimage to Mecca and asked the caliph Kaim for a symbolic permission to visit the city of Baghdad. The caliph obliged. You can guess what would have happened if he didn't... Caliph Kaim recognized Tugrul Bey as Sultan and sermons were read in mosques in Iraq on his behalf. Tugrul Beg asked the Caliph for his daughter. However, the caliph was very bored with this situation.
Caliph to his comrades,

“We got rid of the Shiites, but now will I give my daughter to a barbarian, a nomad, a Turk? " said.

Tuğrul Bey was aware of what was going on thanks to the espionage network he had set up. Tuğrul bey said the following in the face of the news brought to him;

"Those Abbasids are also a ridiculous tribe! Their ancestors once conquered the best half of the earth, founded the richest cities, and look at them today! I take their empire from their hands, they consent. I take their capital, they are happy, they shower me with gifts and the emir'ul mu'minin says to me:'
“I give you all the countries that Allah has given me, I leave all the believers whose fate has entrusted to me in your hands.”
He begs me to take his palace, his person, his harem under my wing. But when I ask for his daughter, he rebels and tries to defend his honor. The only piece of land she's still ready to fight for is a virgin's crotch?


Finally, of course, Tuğrul beg takes the caliph's daughter and says to the caliph, "I will take care of state affairs, you take care of who will enter heaven and hell."

 

[Ryder]

TLDR Tugrul Beg takes caliphs daughter and flexes on the arabs
"First we took your property, your land, your reign
then your caliphs daughter"

Tuğrul bey was coming to the caliph with his army. The caliph was in a great panic. After all, the Turks were not Arabs, and they were also considered Mewali.
Seljuk Sultan Tugrul Bey entered Iraq with a large army on the pretext of going on a pilgrimage to Mecca and asked the caliph Kaim for a symbolic permission to visit the city of Baghdad. The caliph obliged. You can guess what would have happened if he didn't... Caliph Kaim recognized Tugrul Bey as Sultan and sermons were read in mosques in Iraq on his behalf. Tugrul Beg asked the Caliph for his daughter. However, the caliph was very bored with this situation.
Caliph to his comrades,

“We got rid of the Shiites, but now will I give my daughter to a barbarian, a nomad, a Turk? " said.

Tuğrul Bey was aware of what was going on thanks to the espionage network he had set up. Tuğrul bey said the following in the face of the news brought to him;

"Those Abbasids are also a ridiculous tribe! Their ancestors once conquered the best half of the earth, founded the richest cities, and look at them today! I take their empire from their hands, they consent. I take their capital, they are happy, they shower me with gifts and the emir'ul mu'minin says to me:'
“I give you all the countries that Allah has given me, I leave all the believers whose fate has entrusted to me in your hands.”
He begs me to take his palace, his person, his harem under my wing. But when I ask for his daughter, he rebels and tries to defend his honor. The only piece of land she's still ready to fight for is a virgin's crotch?


Finally, of course, Tuğrul beg takes the caliph's daughter and says to the caliph, "I will take care of state affairs, you take care of who will enter heaven and hell."

Gazneli Mahmut started this independance.

Gazneli Mahmut called himself Sultan but he pledged allegiance to the Abbassid Caliph while ruling independant.

Abbassid Caliphate over time got relegated to a religious office rather than a state in the Islamic World.

But man Tugurl and Cagri bey brothers were such badasses and chads!!!

Seriously from the brothers to Malik Shah was basically a golden period for the Turks.

Underrated too.

 

[Ryder]

Ottoman-Italian war where Italy invaded Libya is a interesting piece of history that usually goes overlooked.

Because its the figures you have like Enver Pasha, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, Omar Mukhtar, Sheikh Ahmed Senussi and Ottoman Prince Osman Fuad.

Interesting how Benito Mussolini opposed the war until overtime he justified it and then tried to pacify Libya himself by using brutal and ruthless methods like chemical weapons and concentration camps before Hitler even took power.

 

[Ryder]

Ibn Khalduns praise of the Turks for saving the world of Islam from the Mongols and smearing critique of the Arabs for losing their ways.

 

[Ryder]

Mongol Empire becoming Muslim why is Mongolia not a Muslim majority country?

1. Not all of the Mongol Empire converted. Chagatai, Golden Horde and Ilkhanate became Muslim while the dynasty ran by Kublai Khan did not become Muslim.

2. Mongols settled in the places they conquered overtime them becoming Muslim they assmiliated themselves into Muslim societies especially Muslim Turkic ones.

3. Mongols did not bring Islam back to Mongolia. As if with all Nomads they dont come back to their original lands. Despite the Mongols becoming Muslim they did not bring Islam back to Mongolia.

4. Conversion was gradual but slow. Despite Mongol rulers like Berke Khan becoming Muslim not all of their people became Muslim overnight.

Like the Turks when the Mongols became Muslim they used Islam to justify their military campaigns of converting Non Muslims. Many also styled themselves as Ghazis. Even if the Mongols did not practice Islam properly they still saw themselves champions of the faith. Chagatai khanate played a big role in Islamising Central Asia.

 

[Nilgiri]

Mongol Empire becoming Muslim why is Mongolia not a Muslim majority country?

1. Not all of the Mongol Empire converted. Chagatai, Golden Horde and Ilkhanate became Muslim while the dynasty ran by Kublai Khan did not become Muslim.

2. Mongols settled in the places they conquered overtime them becoming Muslim they assmiliated themselves into Muslim societies especially Muslim Turkic ones.

3. Mongols did not bring Islam back to Mongolia. As if with all Nomads they dont come back to their original lands. Despite the Mongols becoming Muslim they did not bring Islam back to Mongolia.

4. Conversion was gradual but slow. Despite Mongol rulers like Berke Khan becoming Muslim not all of their people became Muslim overnight.

Like the Turks when the Mongols became Muslim they used Islam to justify their military campaigns of converting Non Muslims. Many also styled themselves as Ghazis. Even if the Mongols did not practice Islam properly they still saw themselves champions of the faith. Chagatai khanate played a big role in Islamising Central Asia.

Essentially there was enough insularity in the source from their conquests to the west.

Also their conquest into China acted as massive counter-weight inertia (given raw size of China and its influence back onto the Mongols...both the ruling class and the original hub) to the cultural flux from their westerly directions.

If they went further into Europe, its likely there would be lot more Christian mongol legacy etc....there too.

Mongol identity basically had far deeper bedrock than religion....i.e mongols and their descendants exist in many types then and today.

 

[Ryder]

Essentially there was enough insularity in the source from their conquests to the west.

Also their conquest into China acted as massive counter-weight inertia (given raw size of China and its influence back onto the Mongols...both the ruling class and the original hub) to the cultural flux from their westerly directions.

If they went further into Europe, its likely there would be lot more Christian mongol legacy etc....there too.

Mongol identity basically had far deeper bedrock than religion....i.e mongols and their descendants exist in many types then and today.

Nestorian Christianity was also widespread among the Mongols.

The Kalmyks are Buddhists who were a Mongol Sub group.

Mongolia was ruled by Kublai Khans dynasty.

Mongols were pretty religiously diverse. Crazy thing I found was Tengrism is not the majority religion in modern day Mongolia it is actually Tibetan Buddhism.

As the Mongols and the Turks embraced different religions Tengrism and their native Shamanism dwindled as a result.

 

[Anastasius]

Nestorian Christianity was also widespread among the Mongols.

The Kalmyks are Buddhists who were a Mongol Sub group.

Mongolia was ruled by Kublai Khans dynasty.

Mongols were pretty religiously diverse. Crazy thing I found was Tengrism is not the majority religion in modern day Mongolia it is actually Tibetan Buddhism.

As the Mongols and the Turks embraced different religions Tengrism and their native Shamanism dwindled as a result.

Tengrism is actually inspired from ancient Chinese religion. Tengri appears to be based on Shangdi or rather the early versions of the tian concept in Chinese faith (ancient Turks even had a similar concept to the Chinese "mandate of heaven" IIRC). As we came more into contact with monotheistic faith systems, Tengri morphed to become more of a general "God" figure.

It's not too dissimilar to how Zoroastrianism borrowed from ancient Assyrian faith (look up depictions of Ahura Mazda and compare them with Assyrian deities). Or how ancient Greeks copied Aphrodite from the Phoenicians, who derived the concept from the Sumerians.

The only three faith systems I can think of that were definitely not copied or inspired from anywhere else are ancient Chinese beliefs, ancient Indian beliefs and ancient South American beliefs. And even then that's probably just because we haven't found the civilizations they were copying from.

 

[Nilgiri]

Nestorian Christianity was also widespread among the Mongols.

The Kalmyks are Buddhists who were a Mongol Sub group.

Mongolia was ruled by Kublai Khans dynasty.

Mongols were pretty religiously diverse. Crazy thing I found was Tengrism is not the majority religion in modern day Mongolia it is actually Tibetan Buddhism.

As the Mongols and the Turks embraced different religions Tengrism and their native Shamanism dwindled as a result.

Well like I said impact of China in Mongol overall synthetic archetype of the time is demonstrably significant.

Tibetan Buddhism especially given it was not as "sinicized" as the prevalent forms found in China at the time (the wax and wane of Buddhism during the Tang era for example is quite a long subject of its own).

It (Tibetan Buddhism) offered a good balance to the Mongols in being distinct enough from the Chinese forms (important in unique philosophical legacy/imprint on the assumed heavenly mandate) yet close enough at same time to easily use the developed Chinese institutions and sentiments w.r.t Buddhism and be accepted as legitimate in enough eyes (rather than come off long term as stark foreigner/oppressor).

Also it was part of why Buddhism was picked to begin with by Kublai Khan (once China was largely secure under Mongol rule) as opposed to say harnessing Daoism more (like Chingiz did in his initial foray into China)...the latter would not have had enough "mandate" impact of consequence (i.e would have to compete with the deep set pre-existing Daoist institutions on that front)

i.e Neither too hot or cold, but just right.

Buddhism itself at large is somewhat more nominal a "religion" compared to its contemporaries across time.

I say this because it offers little to no assertion and judgement with regards to the creation/origins mythos.

Rather it tries to answer what we should do with the inherited existence (however it came to be), in order to eventually be entirely congruent with that entire existence.

But this (curious passion) being a large part of the human mindframe (where do we come from?) means a huge strata always exists outside of Buddhism (Buddhism simply overlays past it without challenging/displacing it) in each culture that has adopted or been influenced by it.

Hence why Mongol Shamanism did and does survive (you only need to look somewhat deeper in Mongol culture) though they largely identify as Buddhist.

Same goes for lot of East Asia in general....Buddhism did not replace Chinese, Korean and Japanese folk religions and philosophies (especially as they pertain to creation and perpetual supernatural forces stemming from it)

South East Asia (wherever Buddhism is the defacto prevalent norm) ....same thing.

There's tons of predating/external religion and culture stuff to Buddhism.

Tengrism is actually inspired from ancient Chinese religion. Tengri appears to be based on Shangdi or rather the early versions of the tian concept in Chinese faith (ancient Turks even had a similar concept to the Chinese "mandate of heaven" IIRC). As we came more into contact with monotheistic faith systems, Tengri morphed to become more of a general "God" figure.

It's not too dissimilar to how Zoroastrianism borrowed from ancient Assyrian faith (look up depictions of Ahura Mazda and compare them with Assyrian deities). Or how ancient Greeks copied Aphrodite from the Phoenicians, who derived the concept from the Sumerians.

The only three faith systems I can think of that were definitely not copied or inspired from anywhere else are ancient Chinese beliefs, ancient Indian beliefs and ancient South American beliefs. And even then that's probably just because we haven't found the civilizations they were copying from.

Well "ancient Indian beliefs" and the rest you talk about needs a preliminary deep as possible study w.r.t human migrations (during neolithic and bronze age especially when cultures intersected with civilisation much more than paleolithic) and the impact on language/ethnicity/culture during the time and downstream.

The seeds of both Hinduism and Zoroastrianism come from the andronovo steppe migrations.

They then mixed and merged (as you point out) with their more domestic pre-existing + neighbouring + trading + invasion influences...eventually leading to divergence.

But the languages of Sanskrit and Avestan are quite close (the original liturgy)....as are lot of the messaging, motifs and creator/preceptor stories of the Vedas and Gathas.

Some divergences were quite early like how the Devas are good and Asuras are bad in the Vedic realm (after earlier nebulous joint origin) whereas the opposite (Daeva vis a vis Ahura) in the Zoroastrian realm. You will notice the proximity of the names.

Other later divergences are quite inevitable with time as the main prophets/avatars became localised to the respective regions cultures...and the larger philosophical aegis and meandering (past conquest and sacrifice to please and propitiate the higher realm deities)....the unification of the Gods into one larger underlying origin/force (while retaining the Gods) being possibly the most consequential change over time.

But this is also why fundamentally they (Vedic, Zoro) do bear a collection of strong, medium and tenuous connections to the pagan religions of Europe, since the (fellow Indo-European) yamnaya migrations were of similar or same stock as Andronovo.

When I first read of the funerary rites Achilles respected w.r.t Hector (that form the ending to the Illiad), the parallels with the Vedic realm a great distance away were quite striking.

But eventually it all made sense as to why once you study the migrations and the transmittance of root culture by the larger language family (and indeed the shared migration + conquest phenomenon in general the proto I.E people all did that shaped the mythos philosophy).

 

[Ardabas34]

Tengrism is actually inspired from ancient Chinese religion. Tengri appears to be based on Shangdi or rather the early versions of the tian concept in Chinese faith (ancient Turks even had a similar concept to the Chinese "mandate of heaven" IIRC). As we came more into contact with monotheistic faith systems, Tengri morphed to become more of a general "God" figure.

It's not too dissimilar to how Zoroastrianism borrowed from ancient Assyrian faith (look up depictions of Ahura Mazda and compare them with Assyrian deities). Or how ancient Greeks copied Aphrodite from the Phoenicians, who derived the concept from the Sumerians.

The only three faith systems I can think of that were definitely not copied or inspired from anywhere else are ancient Chinese beliefs, ancient Indian beliefs and ancient South American beliefs. And even then that's probably just because we haven't found the civilizations they were copying from.

I have heard of proto-Yeniseian theory but what you said is bizarre.
Not the mandate of heaven part. The part about Tengri.

Also even a notorious Armenian Turkophobe once said, it is indeed more likely for Chinese to take terms regarding ruling from nomads than the other way around. Just a natural way of how things happen between nomads and sedantaries.

 

[Ryder]

Well like I said impact of China in Mongol overall synthetic archetype of the time is demonstrably significant.

Tibetan Buddhism especially given it was not as "sinicized" as the prevalent forms found in China at the time (the wax and wane of Buddhism during the Tang era for example is quite a long subject of its own).

It (Tibetan Buddhism) offered a good balance to the Mongols in being distinct enough from the Chinese forms (important in unique philosophical legacy/imprint on the assumed heavenly mandate) yet close enough at same time to easily use the developed Chinese institutions and sentiments w.r.t Buddhism and be accepted as legitimate in enough eyes (rather than come off long term as stark foreigner/oppressor).

Also it was part of why Buddhism was picked to begin with by Kublai Khan (once China was largely secure under Mongol rule) as opposed to say harnessing Daoism more (like Chingiz did in his initial foray into China)...the latter would not have had enough "mandate" impact of consequence (i.e would have to compete with the deep set pre-existing Daoist institutions on that front)

i.e Neither too hot or cold, but just right.

Buddhism itself at large is somewhat more nominal a "religion" compared to its contemporaries across time.

I say this because it offers little to no assertion and judgement with regards to the creation/origins mythos.

Rather it tries to answer what we should do with the inherited existence (however it came to be), in order to eventually be entirely congruent with that entire existence.

But this (curious passion) being a large part of the human mindframe (where do we come from?) means a huge strata always exists outside of Buddhism (Buddhism simply overlays past it without challenging/displacing it) in each culture that has adopted or been influenced by it.

Hence why Mongol Shamanism did and does survive (you only need to look somewhat deeper in Mongol culture) though they largely identify as Buddhist.

Same goes for lot of East Asia in general....Buddhism did not replace Chinese, Korean and Japanese folk religions and philosophies (especially as they pertain to creation and perpetual supernatural forces stemming from it)

South East Asia (wherever Buddhism is the defacto prevalent norm) ....same thing.

There's tons of predating/external religion and culture stuff to Buddhism.




Well "ancient Indian beliefs" and the rest you talk about needs a preliminary deep as possible study w.r.t human migrations (during neolithic and bronze age especially when cultures intersected with civilisation much more than paleolithic) and the impact on language/ethnicity/culture during the time and downstream.

The seeds of both Hinduism and Zoroastrianism come from the andronovo steppe migrations.

They then mixed and merged (as you point out) with their more domestic pre-existing + neighbouring + trading + invasion influences...eventually leading to divergence.

But the languages of Sanskrit and Avestan are quite close (the original liturgy)....as are lot of the messaging, motifs and creator/preceptor stories of the Vedas and Gathas.

Some divergences were quite early like how the Devas are good and Asuras are bad in the Vedic realm (after earlier nebulous joint origin) whereas the opposite (Daeva vis a vis Ahura) in the Zoroastrian realm. You will notice the proximity of the names.

Other later divergences are quite inevitable with time as the main prophets/avatars became localised to the respective regions cultures...and the larger philosophical aegis and meandering (past conquest and sacrifice to please and propitiate the higher realm deities)....the unification of the Gods into one larger underlying origin/force (while retaining the Gods) being possibly the most consequential change over time.

But this is also why fundamentally they (Vedic, Zoro) do bear a collection of strong, medium and tenuous connections to the pagan religions of Europe, since the (fellow Indo-European) yamnaya migrations were of similar or same stock as Andronovo.

When I first read of the funerary rites Achilles respected w.r.t Hector (that form the ending to the Illiad), the parallels with the Vedic realm a great distance away were quite striking.

But eventually it all made sense as to why once you study the migrations and the transmittance of root culture by the larger language family (and indeed the shared migration + conquest phenomenon in general the proto I.E people all did that shaped the mythos philosophy).

Thats true buddhism became intergrated with the local cultures of Japan, Mongolia, Vietnam and South Korea.

 

[Domobran7]

Byzantines tried to push the Turks out of Anatolia with Crusader help.

They failed hard. Funny how people overlook this aspect of how the Crusades happened. It happened because the Byzantines begged for help against the Seljuk Turk onslaught. Seljuk Turks already reached their capital so the Eastern Roman Empire appealed for help from the Pope. So the Pope called for a crusade. Just when the crusades were called The Seljuk Empire split into many different sultanates or atabegs.

The Fatimids even teamed up with crusaders to hit the Turks.

Actually, they succeeded. This was Anatolia before the First Crusade:

This was after it:

So the First Crusade was actually a major success. Byzantines basically retook all the areas they were aiming to retake: only the interior of Anatolia remained Turkic, and while they definitely wanted to take that as well, it was not a priority.