TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

Tornadoss

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This ultimately happened because of Israels pressure that F35 shouldn't be made available to Turkey. This worked for us as we knew that F35 would only give us trouble and nothing else. We only made it easy for them to make a decision buying the S400.
If there is a killswitch why would Israel be against F-35. If I would be Israel, I'd like that Turkey would invest in F-35 rather than any other platform. In case of war just use the killswitch. Then your enemy doesn't have any other optıon :D
 

Zafer

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If there is a killswitch why would Israel be against F-35. If I would be Israel, I'd like that Turkey would invest in F-35 rather than any other platform. In case of war just use the killswitch. Then your enemy doesn't have any other optıon :D
The reality unfolded before our very eyes, there is no room for speculation. Israel asked F35 not be given to Turkey and so happened. When you explicitly activate a kill switch that is the and of your weapons sales, you can not sell your products anymore.
 

500

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Sure...
View attachment 29719

Unammaned, AI operated vehicles is the future. There's no two ways about it.

Once Turkey has a sophisticated arsenal of unmanned aircraft in all tiers, there's no way an airforce with a manned airforce can beat an unmanned airforce.
I repeat. Erdogan publicly promised to reverse Assad advances in Idlib. Not only he failed to do so, Assad forces managed to retake Saraqib while Turkish drones were still in the air.

Now check the map of Assad air defence:

SYRIAOVERVIEW2010.jpg


Do you see the slight difference between Idlib and Damascus area?

Israel was first country which developed this type of drones and we know their limitations. Unfortunately they are not wonder weapon.
 

500

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Akıncı & MIUS(some are in A2A role, some in unmaned SOJ role and some in AEWC role) , kargı and the rest will never be alone in the Air but escorted with F -16 & Peace eagle. in the favorable scenario for Greece, Greek AMRAAMs and Meteors will be already depleted when Greek fighters faces with Turkish ones. Or in worst scenario for Greece Akıncı & MIUS and the rest would already unleased their payloads with in the protected zone provided by SİPER, Hısar-O & RF or may be S 400. while all these are happening Turkish navy will be palying its part and depending on the year of this scenario disparty between Turkish Navy and Greek navy may vary but always in our favour. and again depending of the year not only balistic missiles but also Turkish cruise missiles with differing ranges and types will be playing their roles. Aegian is big but not big enough for suprises. All of our targets are with in approximatly 500 km. almost in all possible scenarios Greece seems to be the underdog.
I guess Greece has hudreds of AMRAAMs and Meteors. So how any jets you need to lose before they get depleted how much time it will take?

On the other hand with F-35 you can drop thousands SDB-s on aircraft bunkers, runways, radars, command centers, SAMs without waiting for depletion.
 

500

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If there is a killswitch why would Israel be against F-35. If I would be Israel, I'd like that Turkey would invest in F-35 rather than any other platform. In case of war just use the killswitch. Then your enemy doesn't have any other optıon :D
Yeah i wish we had F-35 kill switch in Tel Aviv. :rolleyes:
 
M

Manomed

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What about electronic warfare? There was nothing special/stealth about TB-2 neither. It is a fairly big and slow aircraft. It was the Koral electronic warfare that blinded the Russian anti air systems.
What system does Israel use for electronic warfare?


We obviously also have American missiles like SCALP. To my knowledge the only thing that Greece possesses that gives us a headache for now is the meteors. Turkey even started producing its own WVRAAMs(Gökdogan) and BVRAAMs(Bozdogan) unlike Greece(see GÖKTUĞ project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GÖKTUĞ) who has to buy them. Our indigenous ones arent as advanced as meteor missiles obviously but Greece will have a limited number.

I mean I dont think it will come down to that anyway, Greece wont go in a conventional war against Turkey or vise versa, it will just give us some headache for max 10 years in Aegean sea and thats it. Hopefully we will employ our indigenous 5th generation fighter jet by 2030 and they will be accompanied by MIUS and Goksungur unmanned fighter jets as well.

F-35 would have been a nice addition to our fleet yes but that wasnt a choice left to us, plus being so computerised and the most likely true humours of kill switch and the way USA behaves to Turkey and they themselves roasting the system and retiring F-16s until 2046 instead of 2025 as it was originally planned...yeah.
Don't forget our E-7s with 700km range we can shotdown any jets on aegean easily without going there
 

Quasar

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I guess Greece has hudreds of AMRAAMs and Meteors. So how any jets you need to lose before they get depleted how much time it will take?

On the other hand with F-35 you can drop thousands SDB-s on aircraft bunkers, runways, radars, command centers, SAMs without waiting for depletion.
ı guess you are not seeing my point you know that there should be a certain amount of A2A missles that a fighter carries and there sould be certain amount of airborn fighters in a certain time. so we are not talking about BVR stockpiles but certain (limited) number of A2A miisles carried by already airborn fighters in a hypothetical air engagement where one side has MIUS &AKINCI ( the fact that they have their own A2A capabilıty which is not curial to my point) decoys and the rest of Turkish unmaned fleet. you locigaly stated that HAF may use their A2A missiles against our unmaned fleet and and logicaly I stated that our unmaned fleet will be escorted with Turkish F 16s. so in this hypothetical air engagement if HAF wasted some of their A2A missiles to our unmanned fleet logic dictates that they will be having less A2A missiles than their Turkish counterparts unless HAF finds a magical way to rearm their figthers up in the air. your stockpile on the ground has no relevance once you are up in the air. Hope I manage to elobrate my point
 
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M

Manomed

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Pantzir is good aa tool in network based systems.

Rubbish, f35 would be hit with bvr from s57 and realise that only when su57 already left.

4.5 would see him from other awarness systems.

Listen, i am ridicouling your narrowed perception wih similar responces. Thing is that any aircraft is heavily depended on external inputs and complex intraoperation activities for favoured income.
In that sence all mentioned aircrafts have their own pro and contra related to the real time conditions and general purpose.
With this i would finish this discussion as i see futile to persuade you that f35 is not some kind wonder weapon, when actually it has lot of shortcoming as any other weapon system.
Bro please shut up we all know even old F-15s can shotdown trash su-57s in bvr F-35 is the best BVR jet in his class now
 

Combat-Master

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I repeat. Erdogan publicly promised to reverse Assad advances in Idlib. Not only he failed to do so, Assad forces managed to retake Saraqib while Turkish drones were still in the air.

Now check the map of Assad air defence:

SYRIAOVERVIEW2010.jpg


Do you see the slight difference between Idlib and Damascus area?

Israel was first country which developed this type of drones and we know their limitations. Unfortunately they are not wonder weapon.

You can repeat it till you're blue in your face, what happened wasn't due to the incapability of the UAV platforms. It was a mixture of issues with the militias on the ground securing and holding areas and politics.

I like how you also disregard Libyan and Azerbaijan wars where Turkish drones were the key to success.

And Hans von Ohain of Germany was the designer of the first operational jet engine, what's your point? Israel is the epitome of all UAV development, give me a break lmao...
 

500

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ı guess you are not seeing my point you know that there should be a certain amount of A2A missles that a fighter carries and there sould be certain amount of airborn fighters in a certain time. so we are not talking about BVR stockpiles but certain (limited) number of A2A miisles carried by already airborn fighters in a hypothetical air engagement where one side has MIUS &AKINCI ( the fact that they have their own A2A capabilıty which is not curial to my point) decoys and the rest of Turkish unmaned fleet. you locigaly stated that HAF may use their A2A missiles against our unmaned fleet and and logicaly I stated that our unmaned fleet will be escorted with Turkish F 16s. so in this hypothetical air engagement if HAF wasted some of their A2A missiles to our unmanned fleet logic dictates that they will be having less A2A missiles than their Turkish counterparts unless HAF finds a magical way to rearm their figthers up in the air. your stockpile on the ground has no relevance once you are up in the air. Hope I manage to elobrate my point
If your fighters are escorting UAV then UAV would be a burden for them. First u need to achieve air superiority, then send big drones.

You can repeat it till you're blue in your face, what happened wasn't due to the incapability of the UAV platforms. It was a mixture of issues with the militias on the ground securing and holding areas and politics.

I like how you also disregard Libyan and Azerbaijan wars where Turkish drones were the key to success.
When you win on battlefield politics can only watch and do nothing.

Lets briefly check what happened in 3 operations involving Turkish attack drones:

1) Syria (Spring Shielf operation).

After initial success Assad forces took back Saraqib. 5 combat drones (3 TB2 and 2 Ankas) were lost in 1 week vs. 2 Pantsir SAMs.

In the beginning of the operation Assad forces had almost no air defences in the area. They were rushed to Idlib from other areas.

2) Libya Tripoli offensive.

After half year of attrition war Haftar forses retreated from Tripoli, but managed to take Sirte. Overall some 20 TB2 and 10 Pantsirs were lost.

Should be noted there was no any air defence system, just separate Pantsirs. WIth modern air force strikes Haftar forces at Tripoli would be finished in 1 week.

3) Karabakh war.

This was a real success TB2. But should be noted:

1) Armenian air defence was very outdated, based almost exclusively on Osa SAM with max altitude 5 km which simply could not reach TB2.
2) It was carefully planned for many years SEAD/DEAD operation, which involved years of recon, dozens of suicide drones, artillery and dozens of decoy targets which paved the way to TB2.

So drones are no wonder weapon at all. They are good against weak outdated air defence. If air defence is strong they can be used only AFTER suppression of air defenses by other means

And Hans von Ohain of Germany was the designer of the first operational jet engine, what's your point? Israel is the epitome of all UAV development, give me a break lmao...
Israel is still one of the leading drone powers. Our drones were crucial in destruction of multi layer Syrian air defence manned by Russian officers already in 1982. Ironically something similar was repeated for the first time only in 2020 in Karabakh. Also ironically Syrian air defences in 1982 were very similar to Armenian in 2020 (Osas and Kubs).

My point is that I wish drones wonder weapon and u think. Unfortunately they are not. For example of we send drones to Damascus now, they will be annihilated long before approaching it.
 

Bogeyman 

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F-35 Not as Survivable as Previously Hoped, HASC Chair Says​


Upgrades in missile technology over the past several years have made the F-35 less survivable than previously hoped, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee said Aug. 31 as he pushed for more investment in smaller, unmanned platforms.

Speaking at a virtual event hosted by the Brookings Institution, Rep. Adam Smith (D.-Wash) was quick to note that the F-35 remains more survivable than other fighters “by quite a bit,” pointing to the F-16 for comparison.

“But it’s also got some environments that it’s not going to be able to get into because of how much missile technology has improved since we started building the thing,” Smith said.

Lockheed Martin, the maker of the stealthy fifth-generation fighter, claims the F-35 is the “most lethal, survivable, and connected fighter jet in the world.” The Air Force plans to buy 1,763 of the aircraft, which would make it the service’s largest fleet.

Smith, on the other hand, has made no secret of his displeasure with the F-35 program. In March, he referred to the fighter as a “rathole,” and in June, he slammed the program’s high sustainment costs.

Most of his criticism has focused on the issue of sustainment, where cost overruns have become a recurring theme for many in Congress. Smith reiterated that theme Aug. 31, pointing to a provision he included in the chairman’s markup of the 2022 National Defense Authorization Act released Aug. 30 that would limit the number of F-35As the Air Force could maintain starting in October 2026. As of May 7, 2021, the Air Force had about 283 F-35s in its fleet, and it requested to buy 48 more in its fiscal 2022 budget. The exact number of airframes the service would be able to maintain would be determined by how much sustainment costs in fiscal 2025 exceed the service’s stated goal of $4.1 million per tail per year.

The issue of survivability, however, presents a different challenge. In the past, the Air Force has said the F-35 has performed “very well in contested environments,” with the goal of progressing to “outstanding.”

At the same time, the service has also acknowledged that broad control of the air in a high-end conflict is no longer achievable, aiming instead for “temporary windows of superiority” in “highly-contested threat environments.”

In such highly contested threat environments, Smith said platforms such as the F-35 are simply too big to go completely undetected. Instead, he advocated for more investment in “smaller, more survivable platforms, in many cases unmanned platforms.”

In particular, Smith pointed to the concept of drone swarms as potentially taking on some of the missions originally envisioned for the F-35.

“We’ve seen this play out in some of the fighting that has happened in Syria and the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict,” Smith said. “You’ve got this undetectable swarm of drones that can still pack a pretty powerful punch—you can’t see it coming, you’ve got a devil of a time shooting it down. That’s why we make investments in that. In many ways, that can accomplish a lot of missions that some of the bigger platforms can’t because they’re easier to see.”

The concept of drone swarms has been on the Air Force’s radar for several years now, with former acquisition boss Will Roper in 2019 calling it the future of warfare. At the same time, the service has also invested in platforms to defend against such swarms, including a high-powered microwave to wipe out wide swathes of drones at once.

In addition to his criticism of the F-35’s survivability, Smith also pushed for more competition in the program, particularly in relation to the engine. Pratt & Whitney’s F135 engine has been the source of lengthy repairs and delays, and both GE and Pratt are currently taking part in the Air Force’s Adaptive Engine Transition Program.

The AETP is primarily intended for future platforms such as the Next-Generation Air Dominance program (NGAD), but “these are engines that could potentially be used in the F-35 as well,” Smith said.

“We have the ability now, I think, to create engine competition going forward,” he added. “We are going to push engine competition because that’s one of the big things that has come up. The engines are … burning out faster and taking longer to fix than we expected. I think we have the ability to push engine competition, and we’re going to do that.”

In his 2022 NDAA markup, Smith proposed directing the Pentagon’s acquisition boss to submit to Congress a “strategy for continued development, integration, and operational fielding of the Adaptive Engine Technology Program propulsion system into the U.S. Air Force fleet of F-35A aircraft beginning in fiscal year 2027.”

 

Cabatli_TR

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Erdogan: “We paid 1 billion 400 million dollars. What will it be? We need to see what happens to this. We are not a country that has plenty of money and scatters it around. We did not earn this money easily, we do not. They will either give us our planes or the money.”
 

Ryder

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Erdogan: “We paid 1 billion 400 million dollars. What will it be? We need to see what happens to this. We are not a country that has plenty of money and scatters it around. We did not earn this money easily, we do not. They will either give us our planes or the money.”

That sucks man.

At the same time I want the planes while at the same time I want the money back.

If they are not going to give the planes at least give the money back.
 
E

Elaser

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That sucks man.

At the same time I want the planes while at the same time I want the money back.

If they are not going to give the planes at least give the money back.
US will not give back the money. At best they will find something to barter, but no planes nor cash.
 

Fighter_35

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Erdogan: “We paid 1 billion 400 million dollars. What will it be? We need to see what happens to this. We are not a country that has plenty of money and scatters it around. We did not earn this money easily, we do not. They will either give us our planes or the money.”
:d,

These are not the words of a powerful country!! they can say, we have given many technological stuff in order for you to build some parts of the plane.
almost half of that money went to joining to project. they may give only the money for 4-6 planes .
 

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