TR Turkiye's F-35 Project and Discussions

[Yasar_TR]

There is a saying in Turkish, about calling the grapes in the vine sour, if you can’t reach them.
It was mentioned here many times about the shortcomings of the F35.
ALIS is like a small laptop, on to which the pilot registers his flight plan details. Then puts it in to a slot in the aircraft before he start his mission. This info is communicated to US. There has been odd instances whereby the computer system crashed and they had to ask from Lockheed for the override codes to start the planes.
After certain members of the consortium criticising sending their airforce specific critical details to US, the ODIN system was implemented. This a cloud-native logistics system. ODIN will combine Lockheed Martin computer and networking hardware with software coded by the government to enable military experts to retain control over the system.

F35 is a plane with many faults. But it has so much good stuff going for itself that many countries around the world are queuing to get it. And those that have bought it are placing repeat orders. It is such a game changer of a plane that Israel unequivocally insists that Turkey shouldn’t have it whilst they keep ordering more of them.

13 year f16 pilot, now a test pilot has flown f35 has below comments:

Siren flew the F-16 in the Air Force for 13 years, a tenure that included several combat tours. At Lockheed Martin, she works as the chief production pilot for the F-35.

Test pilots are the first people to actually fly the F-35 off the factory floor. The fighter will get airborne several times — the first two or three flights are with the company — before the US government goes through all its checks to make sure the jet is all good and ready to be sold.

For Siren, the biggest difference when she made the transition from the F-16 to the new F-35 was the sheer amount of information being presented to the pilot.

In the past, the pilot had to calculate how to use certain tactics or interpret the presented battlespace in their heads, but the F-35 does all of that for the pilot, allowing them to focus their efforts more on the bigger mission picture. Another F-35 test pilot previously told BI that it can be difficult to get good at managing all the information, comparing the jet to a sophisticated video game.

Siren said the biggest surprise of the F-35 was its flight controls in low-speed scenarios. The fifth-generation fighter jet is equipped with a better sensor suite, situational awareness, and data fusion capabilities than the F-16. Those advanced capabilities allow it to perform as more than a fighter jet.

F16, when it first came out was full of criticisms. But now it is actually becoming a 4+ generation fighter. Because it has evolved. F35 is still at the early stages of its evolution. Currently it is the top dog as fighter planes go. Even the excellent f22 can’t match some of its capabilities.

I can’t wait for KAAN to be fully operational when it has all the bells and whistles on board.

F-35 test pilot shares what it's like to jump from flying older F-16s to Lockheed Martin's newest 5th-gen stealth fighter

Monessa Balzhiser, whose call sign is "Siren," explained to Business Insider the surprises of moving from one aircraft to the other.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Sanchez]

the cooperation with Russia S-400 has opened the door to the market in Caucasus and Far East

Untrue. We are neighbours, we had direct, very deep trade relations going as far as 70s with Soviets and then with formed states.

Goods, semiconductors, bilateral trade etc. were diversified as a result.

Turkey was doing all that since early 2000s already.

We won the nuclear program for Akkuyu, nobody voluntarily gives someone else very important high technology.

Akkuyu was awarded to Rosatom in 2010, preliminary construction started on site in 2013. We didn't get any "very important high tech" from Russia. If anything, Russians as they usually do tried to twist our arm around our back for operation contracts of the plant.

If it had been built by a Western company/country

We quite literally begged for South Koreans and French/Japanese to build an NPP in Turkey, they never made serious offers. Because noone else in the world is interested in building a BOO nuclear power plant.

there are no longer any political economic borders that would have been limited by a purely Western commitment with NATO philosophy.

We never had such a commitment. Most of our heavy industry, including Tüpraş was built with Soviet funding and Soviet knowhow in 60s and 70s, during the heigh of the cold war. That's not what NATO means. You have an inkling of an idea of what the "previous" Turkey is and try to say that new Turkey is bigger, better and much more different. No, it is not true. Literally nothing current government is trying to do is that much different than the 250 year old Turkish diplomacy efforts to toe the line between westerners and Russia. Just like they made huge blunders that cost us back in the day, current government also make mistakes. Being forced out of our F-35s is one such huge blunder. Buying the S-400 was not some big ploy, it was not some big move that showed that we were outside the "NATO vassal status". Government tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35, and it lost both of them. S-400 is sitting in Ankara, unused, and F-35 coming back is dependent on us making concessions on other areas. It didn't have to be this way, that's on the government. In the end, we now have the most outdated air force of all our rivals in the region and we still don't have an air defence umbrella. Not even getting into billions worth of exports lost and hundreds of development projects that were delayed for years because of CAATSA.

From Chat GPT:

It's useless, be better.

 

[TR_123456]

a BOO nuclear power plant.

?

 

[Ahlatshah]

?

BOO= Built, Own, Operate

 

[Zoth]

I've been silently reading comments and discussions regarding the whole F35 debacle.

Despite all it's faults, F35 is a very capable Jet, our choice of buying S400 were political, the expulsion of Turkey from F35 program was a geopolitical move done very well by both Israeli and Greek lobby, we gave them the strongest card by ourselves.

As a person who despises USA for personal reasons, despite the expulsion of Turkey from f35 program being a big issue in the short term. I personally believe that it's for the better in the long term, for our domestic production capabilities and for a better collaboration and cooperation both with European and Asian countries.

This should be taught in classes that we should never ever fully rely on USA. We are trying to be the allies of USA but we are not playing the game correctly, if someone wishes to have true influence in USA, they need very strong lobby presence which we lack of.

If someone wishes to hear my personal opinion on whether we should get F35s moving forward, i would say, get the 6 jets that are sitting on the hangar and see if those in any way can help Kaan production. Even if they take us back to F35 program and let us buy more jets, the earliest we can build a squadron out of f35s would be in 2031, which at that point(assuming that everything goes well) we will already have Kaans flying in our inventory and getting ready to finish our domestic engine, what would be the point?

We lost the train of F35, and it's already too late to get them, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ryder]

Man regardless of what people think of the F35 if your neighbours have a Ferrari you cant compete with them in a fiat.

It doesnt matter if you put 700bhp into that Fiat its a fiat.

F35B is would have given the Turkish navy aviation capabilities.

 

[Hannibal]

Just end the discussion, at this point, unless we regain industrial participation there is no point giving billions to USA by buying F-35.

Go invest that money on Kaan. Create jobs and factories in Turkiye.

Nonetheless, this is the biggest own goal in recent Turkish geopolitics.

 

[I_Love_F16]

From Chat GPT:

Chat GPT is unreliable. A lot of erroneous information coming out of it.

 

[Holikarbon]

Man regardless of what people think of the F35 if your neighbours have a Ferrari you cant compete with them in a fiat.

It doesnt matter if you put 700bhp into that Fiat its a fiat.

F35B is would have given the Turkish navy aviation capabilities.

Capabilities that everyone knows. The plane has so many users that there will be no unknown capability left. This makes it easy to take precautions against it.

Kaan is important for this reason alone. Its capabilities may be less or more than the F-35, but the enemy will never be sure of this. It has the advantage of keeping every capability gained for yourself.

It is important for us to invest all the money in Kaan.

 

[Bilge adam reis]

Untrue. We are neighbours, we had direct, very deep trade relations going as far as 70s with Soviets and then with formed states.


Turkey was doing all that since early 2000s already.


Akkuyu was awarded to Rosatom in 2010, preliminary construction started on site in 2013. We didn't get any "very important high tech" from Russia. If anything, Russians as they usually do tried to twist our arm around our back for operation contracts of the plant.


We quite literally begged for South Koreans and French/Japanese to build an NPP in Turkey, they never made serious offers. Because noone else in the world is interested in building a BOO nuclear power plant.


We never had such a commitment. Most of our heavy industry, including Tüpraş was built with Soviet funding and Soviet knowhow in 60s and 70s, during the heigh of the cold war. That's not what NATO means. You have an inkling of an idea of what the "previous" Turkey is and try to say that new Turkey is bigger, better and much more different. No, it is not true. Literally nothing current government is trying to do is that much different than the 250 year old Turkish diplomacy efforts to toe the line between westerners and Russia. Just like they made huge blunders that cost us back in the day, current government also make mistakes. Being forced out of our F-35s is one such huge blunder. Buying the S-400 was not some big ploy, it was not some big move that showed that we were outside the "NATO vassal status". Government tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35, and it lost both of them. S-400 is sitting in Ankara, unused, and F-35 coming back is dependent on us making concessions on other areas. It didn't have to be this way, that's on the government. In the end, we now have the most outdated air force of all our rivals in the region and we still don't have an air defence umbrella. Not even getting into billions worth of exports lost and hundreds of development projects that were delayed for years because of CAATSA.


It's useless, be better.

Thank you sanches, thank you, you said everything I wanted to say.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Untrue. We are neighbours, we had direct, very deep trade relations going as far as 70s with Soviets and then with formed states.


Turkey was doing all that since early 2000s already.


Akkuyu was awarded to Rosatom in 2010, preliminary construction started on site in 2013. We didn't get any "very important high tech" from Russia. If anything, Russians as they usually do tried to twist our arm around our back for operation contracts of the plant.


We quite literally begged for South Koreans and French/Japanese to build an NPP in Turkey, they never made serious offers. Because noone else in the world is interested in building a BOO nuclear power plant.


We never had such a commitment. Most of our heavy industry, including Tüpraş was built with Soviet funding and Soviet knowhow in 60s and 70s, during the heigh of the cold war. That's not what NATO means. You have an inkling of an idea of what the "previous" Turkey is and try to say that new Turkey is bigger, better and much more different. No, it is not true. Literally nothing current government is trying to do is that much different than the 250 year old Turkish diplomacy efforts to toe the line between westerners and Russia. Just like they made huge blunders that cost us back in the day, current government also make mistakes. Being forced out of our F-35s is one such huge blunder. Buying the S-400 was not some big ploy, it was not some big move that showed that we were outside the "NATO vassal status". Government tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35, and it lost both of them. S-400 is sitting in Ankara, unused, and F-35 coming back is dependent on us making concessions on other areas. It didn't have to be this way, that's on the government. In the end, we now have the most outdated air force of all our rivals in the region and we still don't have an air defence umbrella. Not even getting into billions worth of exports lost and hundreds of development projects that were delayed for years because of CAATSA.


It's useless, be better.

Yes, but not to the same extent as today. International trade on the scale you describe was not possible during the Cold War and until the 1990s and 2000s, Turkey simply did not have the contacts for diversified trade with several countries. The economy was linked to that of the West. Thanks to the coups, every time the country was on the verge of emancipation political and economics, it was put back on the EU & NATO dependency line with suddenly attacked by debt, interest rates, rating agencies to keep them back in western spheres.
Sorry, but these are not coincidences - they are familiar patterns.

I have great respect for you, but you don't know much about real geopolitics.
If you describe it that there were hardly any differences to the past, why was the currency worth toilet paper in 70,80, 90s in Turkey much more then now.

How can you keep a country small through economic control, dependencies and selective pressure? With these means...
From the 1950s to the 2000s, Turkey was an absolute nothing economically, geopolitically and militarily and under Full Control from USA & EU.

1. 1960 Coup (Adnan Menderes Government)​

• Economic Situation Before the Coup:
  • In the 1950s, Turkey under Adnan Menderes pursued economic liberalization, investing in infrastructure, agriculture, and industrialization.
  • Turkey took loans from the West, but Menderes also sought economic independence and started engaging with the Soviet Union for trade and development projects.
  • Inflation and economic problems were rising, leading to tensions.
• Why Did the Coup Happen?
  • Menderes clashed with the military and the secular elite.
  • His outreach to the Soviet Union and attempts at independent economic policies made him inconvenient for the West.
  • The military staged a coup, and Menderes was executed.

2. 1971 Coup ("Memorandum Coup")​

• Economic Situation:
  • In the 1960s, Turkey followed a state-led economic model focused on import substitution and industrial growth.
  • The economy was becoming less dependent on the West, with a growing domestic industrial sector.
  • Meanwhile, leftist movements and trade unions gained influence, increasing resistance to Western economic dominance.
• Why Did the Coup Happen?
  • The military issued a memorandum forcing Prime Minister Süleyman Demirel to resign.
  • The increasing leftist influence in the economy and political instability were perceived as threats.
  • After the coup, neoliberal economic policies favoring the West were promoted.

3. 1980 Coup from Kenan Evren ​

• Economic Situation:
  • The 1970s were marked by a severe economic crisis with high inflation, unemployment, and political unrest.
  • There were attempts to stabilize the economy through protectionist measures and a more independent industrial policy.
  • At the same time, violent clashes between leftist and right-wing groups escalated.
• Why Did the Coup Happen?
  • The military intervened, claiming to restore "stability."
  • After the coup, neoliberal economic reforms were introduced, benefiting Western interests.
  • Turkey was reintegrated into Western economic structures.

4. "Postmodern Coup" of 1997 (Against Erbakan)​

• Economic Situation:
  • Turkey started diversifying its economic partnerships, reducing dependence on the West.
  • Prime Minister Necmettin Erbakan built close ties with Islamic countries and attempted to establish an independent economic policy.
• Why Did the Coup Happen?
  • The military forced Erbakan to resign.
  • His economic and geopolitical shift away from the West was a major concern for secular elites and Western interests.
  • After his removal, Turkey returned to a pro-Western economic path.

5. 2016 Coup Attempt (Against Erdoğan)​

• Economic Situation Before the Coup Attempt:
  • In the 2000s and early 2010s, Turkey experienced strong economic growth under Erdoğan.
  • Dependence on the West was gradually reduced, with strengthened trade relations with Russia, China, and the Middle East.
  • Turkey began positioning itself more independently geopolitically, and taking a more active role in Europe and the Middle East
  • and the US increased, particularly over Turkey’s foreign policy in Syria and Libya.
• Why Did the Coup Attempt Happen?
  • Officially, the Gülen movement was blamed for the coup attempt, which previously had close ties to the West.
  • Many observers suspect that Western intelligence agencies were at least aware of the coup push, plans or tolerated them.
  • Erdoğan accused the West of indirectly supporting the coup, as relations between Turkey and the US/EU were strained at the time.
• After the Coup Attempt:
  • Erdoğan significantly consolidated his power and launched mass arrests of military personnel, judges, civil servants, and opposition figures.
  • Turkey continued to move toward political and economic independence and deepened its relations with USA, EU and also Russia, China, Africa and the Middle East.

 

[Zoth]

Yes, but not to the same extent as today. International trade on the scale you describe was not possible during the Cold War and until the 1990s and 2000s, Turkey simply did not have the contacts for diversified trade with several countries. The economy was linked to that of the West.

Turkey did nothing out of ordinary, it just followed the trend of globalization with the world turning into unipolar of USA hegemony after the fall of Soviet Union. We can even argue that Turkey did less than expected in the economic and geopolitics area due to short sighted political actions.

 

[Turkic]

Buying the S-400 was not some big ploy, it was not some big move that showed that we were outside the "NATO vassal status". Government tried to get both the S-400 and the F-35, and it lost both of them. S-400 is sitting in Ankara, unused

Wrong, it's impossible to say S-400's are sitting in Ankara or not being used. That's not how air defence systems work. Anything before all, we saw S-400's moving to a x point on some footages not long ago. Means systems are being deployed regarding risks around us. It is repeatedly stated that systems are ready and will be used if necessary. Even if you don't believe MoD, you don't need anything to use an air defence system. Deploy, activate radar, lock and fire! You don't have to integrate it to your air defence network. Just get your other air defence systems to manuel so they don't shoot S-400's missiles. That's all you got to do.

Also we have an air defence umbrella. Domestic systems up to 100 kms and S-400's for the rest. The thing we don't have is ABM capability and we can cover this with what we have until we get Siper Block-3.

About F-35, we will get what's ours. We attacked Cyprus, they stopped giving us F-4's and a decade later they were even gifting us their F-4's. This time we didn't attack Crete or somewhere else. It's just an air defence system.

 

[I_Love_F16]

Also we have an air defence umbrella

We lack long range air defence systems. It is not ready yet.

 

[Tornadoss]

We lack long range air defence systems. It is not ready yet.

I'd added ABM as well.

 

[Turkic]

We lack long range air defence systems. It is not ready yet.

There are only a few countries having an air defence system with a longer range than Patriot. Which is approximately equivalent to Siper Block-2's. If you mean we should be one of those few countries, than you're right.

I'd added ABM as well.

I have already added it:

The thing we don't have is ABM capability and we can cover this with what we have until we get Siper Block-3.

 

[Sanchez]

Turkey simply did not have the contacts for diversified trade with several countries.

We had Cold War, world economy wasn't fully liberal back then. China was a hellhole.

Thanks to the coups, every time the country was on the verge of emancipation political and economics, it was put back on the EU & NATO dependency line with suddenly attacked by debt, interest rates, rating agencies to keep them back in western spheres.

It was a bit more complicated than that actually. We did have all those problems, we had them in 40s, we had them in 90s, and by how the economy is going forward for the last 5 years, we will have the same issues 30 years later as well. It's not mine, yours or NATO's fault that no Turkish politician ever swallowed the hard pill to fix our ever present problems with the economy.

From the 1950s to the 2000s, Turkey was an absolute nothing economically, geopolitically and militarily and under Full Control from USA & EU.

From 1950s to 2000s, Turkey still held onto its policy goals, straddled the line between east and west, saved our kin from genocide in Cyprus against the wishes of literally the entire world and managed to come out unscathed. You choosing to not remember them doesn't make something untrue. Social democrats and islamists came together to form a unity government to go to Cyprus, we managed that. Nowadays, with an economy 10 times the size we are still on the whim of a mad man in DC and have to wait for our turn to go to Eastern Syria with his blessing. 37th government didn't wait for anyone's blessing. But you are saying to me that they were "under full control from US&EU". I implore you to think again. Either your equation is wrong or current government is a bigger failure than the older ones. Can't have both.

it's impossible to say S-400's are sitting in Ankara or not being used

Is it?

Here it is in mid 2023. Why do you think they are not deployed? Where do you think the rest of them, about 15 more vehicles are?

Anything before all, we saw S-400's moving to a x point on some footages not long ago.

Good point, we would have seen if a convoy of about 25 Russian made 8x8 trucks with huge loads went to anywhere on public roads. What is actually near impossible is hiding such a huge convoy. When they went to Sinop, we saw them. People being people just take photos and videos of them. When Russians evacuated their S-400s in Syria to Tartous, we saw them again. We didn't see any Turkish S-400s on road since the Sinop test in 2020.

Means systems are being deployed regarding risks around us.

I agree that we should have seen them deployed to crisis areas near our borders, but again, we didn't. Iran sent ballistic missiles to Idlib last year. Iranian shit missiles could also very well hit Hatay as well. S-400 wasn't there. Armenia and Azerbaijan went to war in 2020 and 2023. Armenians used ballistic missiles to hit Azerbaijani cities, we could have been hit by old Soviet missiles in error. S-400 wasn't deployed there. Istanbul/Kocaeli is still undefended. We have a Greece with an itchy trigger finger whose only strategy relies on striking highly important heavy industry and infrastructure. Korkut is there, it even went to Libya. We saw that. Hisar-O is deployed, we saw it near Syria. Every single air defence system we have is used in some capacity in a region where they are needed. The Spanish Patriot is defending our homeland for the 10 years, guarding one of the most important airbases we have, we see it every month or so. Its soldiers live in tent cities and prefab houses. But we don't see the S-400. Because S-400 is not there, it's not ready for action. I'm sure they do their regular maintenance, but that doesn't mean anything if it's not deployed.

Deploy, activate radar, lock and fire!

These are not standalone systems like Korkut or Hisar Otonom. You need majority of the mentioned trucks near each other to operate the battery. 5 TELs and Big Bird itself is near useless without Grave Stone with them. It's a battery, operated by 40-50 soldiers at minimum. An army thinks about the places where the battery can be deployed, places where operators sleep in, places about contingencies, defending the battery, accompanying systems to defend the battery against different munitions. Sending the battery from Mürted to a new location, setting it up and getting it ready is a week long process. It can't be ready if it's not deployed.

Also we have an air defence umbrella.

We don't. We have a single Siper B1 battery that was delivered 3 months ago, I believe 3-4 Hisar O's, less than 5 Hisar A's and a total of 40+ Korkuts. That's a cocktail umbrella, we need 10 times more to have the umbrella. We'll get there in a decade. And unlike before when we had the largest and one of the most advanced air forces in our region, we now don't. 1 future rival/adversary is an F-35 user, another will be a user 5 years later.

About F-35, we will get what's ours.

I'm not so sure.

 

[Turkic]

Is it?

Here it is in mid 2023. Why do you think they are not deployed? Where do you think the rest of them, about 15 more vehicles are?

View attachment 73611

I have no info for before 2024. It has been talked a lot in 2024 and no news were there until then.

Good point, we would have seen if a convoy of about 25 Russian made 8x8 trucks with huge loads went to anywhere on public roads. What is actually near impossible is hiding such a huge convoy. When they went to Sinop, we saw them. People being people just take photos and videos of them. When Russians evacuated their S-400s in Syria to Tartous, we saw them again. We didn't see any Turkish S-400s on road since the Sinop test in 2020.

I was talking about a footage from the last Syria crysis but I couldn't find it on the web, seems like deleted. I'll look for it I'll post it here if I find it. I don't know if the footage was real tho. Never checked.

I agree that we should have seen them deployed to crisis areas near our borders, but again, we didn't. Iran sent ballistic missiles to Idlib last year. Iranian shit missiles could also very well hit Hatay as well. S-400 wasn't there. Armenia and Azerbaijan went to war in 2020 and 2023. Armenians used ballistic missiles to hit Azerbaijani cities, we could have been hit by old Soviet missiles in error. S-400 wasn't deployed there. Istanbul/Kocaeli is still undefended. We have a Greece with an itchy trigger finger whose only strategy relies on striking highly important heavy industry and infrastructure. Korkut is there, it even went to Libya. We saw that. Hisar-O is deployed, we saw it near Syria. Every single air defence system we have is used in some capacity in a region where they are needed. The Spanish Patriot is defending our homeland for the 10 years, guarding one of the most important airbases we have, we see it every month or so. Its soldiers live in tent cities and prefab houses. But we don't see the S-400. Because S-400 is not there, it's not ready for action. I'm sure they do their regular maintenance, but that doesn't mean anything if it's not deployed.

Again, I have no info for before 2024 and we can't be sure if it is deployed. Neither what I say proves it to be deployed nor what you say proves it isn't. It could be well hidden from people&media since it is a critical system or some other reason.

These are not standalone systems like Korkut or Hisar Otonom. You need majority of the mentioned trucks near each other to operate the battery. 5 TELs and Big Bird itself is near useless without Grave Stone with them. It's a battery, operated by 40-50 soldiers at minimum. An army thinks about the places where the battery can be deployed, places where operators sleep in, places about contingencies, defending the battery, accompanying systems to defend the battery against different munitions. Sending the battery from Mürted to a new location, setting it up and getting it ready is a week long process. It can't be ready if it's not deployed.

I meant they don't need systems other than S-400 batallion includes. Maybe I should give more details on my posts. That's my fault.

They won't need a week if MoD is not lying at this one. They said there are ready places to deploy S-400's.

We don't. We have a single Siper B1 battery that was delivered 3 months ago, I believe 3-4 Hisar O's, less than 5 Hisar A's and a total of 40+ Korkuts. That's a cocktail umbrella, we need 10 times more to have the umbrella. We'll get there in a decade. And unlike before when we had the largest and one of the most advanced air forces in our region, we now don't. 1 future rival/adversary is an F-35 user, another will be a user 5 years later.

You're right with this one. We do have a theoretical umbrella but we sure lack at numbers produced.

 

[Hannibal]

Christophe Gomart Warns: European F-35s at Risk of US Control - ΑΜΥΝΑ News

European F-35s would not be able to fly without permission from the US Pentagon.

www.amyna.news

Good thing we got Kaan going, that yellow haired monkey can scratch my balls. Maybe some countries will cancel F-35 purchases.

 

[Huelague]

Christophe Gomart Warns: European F-35s at Risk of US Control - ΑΜΥΝΑ News

European F-35s would not be able to fly without permission from the US Pentagon.

www.amyna.news

Good thing we got Kaan going, that yellow haired monkey can scratch my balls. Maybe some countries will cancel F-35 purchases.

Sneaky French advertise their own fighter jet.