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Tornadoss

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I don't want to start a long discussion but for the AKINCI (or reaper for that matter) to "hunt" a modern fighter jet is impossible.
If you want to ask why, you can reach me on DMs



I'm saying that it's not that Akıncı's design is more efficient, it's just that US military industrial complex is inefficient.

You can see how ridiculously cheap Chinese wing loong UAVs are, that we shot down in Libya.

Moving forward, they will be our main competition. And it will be tough to make it cheaper than the chinese.
Actually, why not using BVR missiles coupled with data from E-7. Definitely, they won't replace the fighters but might be a force multiplier.
 
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LegionnairE

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Actually, why not using BVR missiles coupled with data from E-7. Definitely, they won't replace the fighters but might be a force multiplier.
It's going to be a rather long discussion and I wanted to avoid it but in short: the platform that fires the missile is as important as the missile itself, besides pilot skill and many other factors that play a role. What altitude you launch the missile and at what speed is important to the missile's range. That's why you don't see anybody firing AIM-120C from Super Tucanos. And faster, hypersonic missiles can't be launched from subsonic platforms at all. You need to be going very fast to be able to launch a RAMJET or SCRAMJET powered weapon.

Could you "escort" an E-7 and make sure it's not completely defenseless? Yes. But you better hope the enemy is out of missiles because no competent pilot is going to lose a BVR engagement to a turboprop.
 

Nilgiri

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And faster, hypersonic missiles can't be launched from subsonic platforms at all. You need to be going very fast to be able to launch a RAMJET or SCRAMJET powered weapon.

Well, there will be a rocket booster for this role.

Adds significant weight to the whole system so you need that capacity in the platform.
 
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LegionnairE

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Well, there will be a rocket booster for this role.

Adds significant weight to the whole system so you need that capacity in the platform.

Yeah yeah I'm trying to cut this short and not derail the thread, yes there are various workarounds for these problems but the problems exist.

Let's not forget that if you're capable of only mach 0.6 while your opponent is doing mach 1.6 he is going to decide when and where the fight takes place. The idea of a turboprop "hunting" a modern fighter jet is ludicrous .

When it comes to air-to-air engagements BVR or WVR doesn't matter, Akıncı can only be a test-bed for MIUS' systems
 
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Nutuk

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It's going to be a rather long discussion and I wanted to avoid it but in short: the platform that fires the missile is as important as the missile itself, besides pilot skill and many other factors that play a role. What altitude you launch the missile and at what speed is important to the missile's range. That's why you don't see anybody firing AIM-120C from Super Tucanos. And faster, hypersonic missiles can't be launched from subsonic platforms at all. You need to be going very fast to be able to launch a RAMJET or SCRAMJET powered weapon.

Could you "escort" an E-7 and make sure it's not completely defenseless? Yes. But you better hope the enemy is out of missiles because no competent pilot is going to lose a BVR engagement to a turboprop.

That's a bit false analogy, that AIM-120C is not fired from super Tucanos because of speed but because it is impractical and no such demand was placed ever.

The second statement to able to launch a ramjet or scramjet you need to be going very fast is also false, the missile simply would need a booster as Russians fire Ramjet powered missiles from their frigates = almost initial stand still speed
 
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LegionnairE

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That's a bit false analogy, that AIM-120C is not fired from super Tucanos because of speed but because it is impractical and no such demand was placed ever.

The second statement to able to launch a ramjet or scramjet you need to be going very fast is also false, the missile simply would need a booster as Russians fire Ramjet powered missiles from their frigates = almost initial stand still speed

Okay nutuk you can take a super tucano to go fight a flanker. Sounds like a good idea. Cheers.
 

Nutuk

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A super Tucano does not have a radar, whereas Akinci will (and AESA to be precise)

But putting a AA missile on a super Tucano is impractical cos that aircraft has a limited range, AKINCI like drones have quite a respectable range. (you can fly mission in Libya and land back in Turkey). Try that with a super Tucano!
 

Ardabas34

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That's a bit false analogy, that AIM-120C is not fired from super Tucanos because of speed but because it is impractical and no such demand was placed ever.

The second statement to able to launch a ramjet or scramjet you need to be going very fast is also false, the missile simply would need a booster as Russians fire Ramjet powered missiles from their frigates = almost initial stand still speed
Why is it impractical according to you?
 

Nutuk

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Why is it impractical according to you?
Range of super Tucano, secondly no radar

This is actually even a non constructive debate as it is already decided that AA missiles will be part of Akinci.

And some guys are still debating whether that can be or not.
 
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LegionnairE

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Range of super Tucano, secondly no radar

This is actually even a non constructive debate as it is already decided that AA missiles will be part of Akinci.

And some guys are still debating whether that can be or not.
never said it can't be.

I said no turboprop can "hunt" a modern jet fighter. cant match them in BVR or WVR combat. I wish I had the power to put you in a turboprop of your choice to go fight an F15 or something so we wouldn't have to listen to your... nevermind have a nice day.
 

Fuzuli NL

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never said it can't be.

I said no turboprop can "hunt" a modern jet fighter. cant match them in BVR or WVR combat. I wish I had the power to put you in a turboprop of your choice to go fight an F15 or something so we wouldn't have to listen to your... nevermind have a nice day.
Careful now!
 

Nutuk

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never said it can't be.

I said no turboprop can "hunt" a modern jet fighter. cant match them in BVR or WVR combat. I wish I had the power to put you in a turboprop of your choice to go fight an F15 or something so we wouldn't have to listen to your... nevermind have a nice day.
True it can't.

Akinci has never meant to be an "air superiority fighter", that's the role of TFx.

But Akinci with the right AA missiles is perfectly able to defend herself, as it is the missile that does the job not the platform. The platform is facilitating by carrying the missile and the right sensor / communications suite to enable guidance / tracking / networking
 
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LegionnairE

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True it can't.

Akinci has never meant to be an "air superiority fighter", that's the role of TFx.

But Akinci with the right AA missiles is perfectly able to defend herself, as it is the missile that does the job not the platform

The modern jet fighter, doesn't matter which one, will just go cold, evade your missile, come back and shoot you down. Your best bet is to delay the enemy long enough by sacrificing a few Akıncıs, Tucanos, Hürkuş' whatever to save the E-7 but that's about it.
 

Nutuk

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Do you know the Falklands war, in which British Harriers (low speed) easily downed the much faster Argentinian Mirage jets?

The British had simply the better AA missiles

Mod Edit: Stay away from provocations. Report and don't engage on personal level!
 
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Elaser

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Akinci with AESA and active guided solid-fuel BVR missiles will beat anything short of a modern supersonic fighter with solid-fuel or ramjet BVR missiles.

Helicopters subsonic aircraft including other drones subsonic cruise missiles and supersonic fighter-bombers with no BVR like SU-24 and Tornado are all prime targets for Akinci with AESA+BVR missiles.

Akinci with Gokhan can even take on modern supersonic fighters equipped with non-ramjet BVR missiles.

Akinci has endurance of 13+ hours with a payload of 1360kg while a modern fighter doesn't have the endurance to turn and burn potentially 4+ BVR shots from an Akinci.
 

Test7

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The modern jet fighter, doesn't matter which one, will just go cold, evade your missile, come back and shoot you down. Your best bet is to delay the enemy long enough by sacrificing a few Akıncıs, Tucanos, Hürkuş' whatever to save the E-7 but that's about it.
Akinci is not fighter killer. It is +1 platform carrying extra AA missiles. While fighting with enemy fighters, enemy also has to deal with Akinci's carrying AA missiles. For this, extra fighter have to be assigned. So they have to divide the fleet while fighting. This mean advantage for Turkish air force.. Even if the akinci shot a helicopter, it'll reduce the air force's work..
 

Nutuk

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Akinci is not fighter killer. It is +1 platform carrying extra AA missiles. While fighting with enemy fighters, enemy also has to deal with platforms carrying AA missiles. For this, extra fighter have to be assigned. So they have to divide the fleet while fighting. This mean advantage for Turkish air force.. Even if the akinci shot a helicopter, it'll reduce the air force's work..
Aside from the effect of having an AA armed UCAV flying in a conflict zone.

Turboprop drones will inherently not be fast aircraft, but the Harrier was not either. Nonetheless it was a very valuable asset even used by the US air force.

All our assets add +1 to our fighter force
 

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