TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Nutuk

Contributor
Think Tank Analyst
Messages
965
Reactions
8 3,484
Nation of residence
Nethelands
Nation of origin
Turkey
My humble opinion about UAV's with BVR A2A missiles is that If the UAVs are operational where there is no Air defence support, UAVs should be armed with BVR A2A missiles.

İmagine we will have TCG Trakya with Bayraktar TB3s. Without long range SAMs and f-16 supports, how could the ship will be safe in the Mediterranean sea.
İt would be great to arm TB-3s with Gökhan ramjet missiles for naval areal Air defence.

Under any circumstances it would reduce risks.

On the contrary, in Syria, Libya and Karabag the UAV's were operational in war and against air defenses.

Where manned aircraft could not be risked due to air defenses, drones made the difference
 

comolokko

Committed member
Messages
156
Reactions
313
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
could this drone be AKINCI?
link
Screenshot_1.png
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,056
Solutions
2
Reactions
94 22,442
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
My humble opinion about UAV's with BVR A2A missiles is that If the UAVs are operational where there is no Air defence support, UAVs should be armed with BVR A2A missiles.

İmagine we will have TCG Trakya with Bayraktar TB3s. Without long range SAMs and f-16 supports, how could the ship will be safe in the Mediterranean sea.
İt would be great to arm TB-3s with Gökhan ramjet missiles for naval areal Air defence.

Under any circumstances it would reduce risks.
You can not protect a ship with aerial AA support or establish an air superiority with that. It is not sustainable or practical. Would work on the theory in peacetime for show business.
 

Combat-Master

Baklava Consumer
Moderator
Messages
3,667
Reactions
15 25,473
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Now that we are maturing the TS1400 and we have mastered that power range, what if we make a turboprop from it and equip an Akıncı Block 2 with it? like 2x1500 hp. It can give in excess of 3 tons of payload for 15 hours at 500km/h speed or so. It would sport an indigenous rating of around 95% and be the largest subsonic UCAV flying. The fact that BSS Company are developing the 750hp engine makes this plan only the backup plan in case things change course with the BSS Company.

Would there be a reason why such a thing hasn't happened yet? It's definitely possible;

French converted their Ardiden 3 (similar to TS1400 with centrifugal compressors) into a 1,700shp turboprop
EH9XZXTWsAAlrqh.jpg
 

Ryder

Experienced member
Messages
10,235
Reactions
5 17,670
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Turkey
People are quick to dismiss certain warfare option cos in their mind they look up to the US and think: the US is using it this way, this is the best and everything else is not worth to even try out.

We have seen all those fortunetellers who predicted that TB2 was no match against modern air defense systems, they are all mum now.

Now we have fortunetellers predicting that AA weaponized drones have no chance against manned fighters. They even make discussions about it, declare everyone who oppose their closed mind as idiot who know nothing (cos they are the expert!).

What do we have to lose? Try out AA weapons on drones, if it doesn't work out good go back to using it as bomber. But if it works out we change again the rules of warfare!

People dont realise that warfare is not static as it constantly changes and evolves.
 

mulj

Experienced member
Messages
1,989
Reactions
3,243
Nation of residence
Bosnia & Herzegovina
Nation of origin
Bosnia & Herzegovina
People are quick to dismiss certain warfare option cos in their mind they look up to the US and think: the US is using it this way, this is the best and everything else is not worth to even try out.

We have seen all those fortunetellers who predicted that TB2 was no match against modern air defense systems, they are all mum now.

Now we have fortunetellers predicting that AA weaponized drones have no chance against manned fighters. They even make discussions about it, declare everyone who oppose their closed mind as idiot who know nothing (cos they are the expert!).

What do we have to lose? Try out AA weapons on drones, if it doesn't work out good go back to using it as bomber. But if it works out we change again the rules of warfare!
That is consequence of hard stamp on people minds in western hemisphere due USA dominance last 80 or so years and their dictating what works what does not.
Perception like it wont go away easily only some major war where USA armament will perform poorly, until then they will spin endlessly how it is best option available while they encounter from time to time some antics weaponized enemy.
Luckily your military planers moved away from that mindset and in same time respecting logic and nature of military capabilities itself. Discussions on forums wont change that path.
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,775
Reactions
15 19,850
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
Alpin company Improved the fuselage design and aerodynamics of the TITRA unmanned helicopter with the experience gained in the first prototype studies. Unmanned helicopter Alpin has been strengthened for military missions, weapons and ammunition integration.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac1.jpg


Dönmez stated that they decided to make some changes in the body design and aerodynamics of the vehicle after their experience in the first prototype works, and stated that they were preparing the vehicle for missions in the defense industry. Dönmez said, "As a result of the flight tests we conducted with our first designs, we have improved the fuselage design for the integrations we will make especially in the defense field, in order to make it look a little fuller and to make the integration of weapons and ammunition more efficient. We also exhibited the first prototype fuselage at IDEF 2021." said.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac3.jpg


Selman Dönmez also stated that negotiations with different defense industry companies, especially on the integration of ammunition and weapons, continue, and that the new hull will provide great advantages for these missions.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac2.jpg
thumbs_b_c_668b9c438d9c248a2536f5a046a1d1a3.jpg


 
L

LegionnairE

Guest
These won't be particularly used in direct A2A engagement but Akincis will left out in patrol duties in gangs, they can loiter much longer than F-16s. Moreover it is already revealed they are developing a new AA missile to be fired from drones.

I would personally wait until TAF fits these kind of platforms into their doctrine. Nobody would expect smart munition+UAV combo would be this effective in a full war until TAF adopted them into their style.
For this reason i will not look how the manufacturer is bragging, i will look at how TAF will be using those and i am sure the latter will be much more effective than what is exaggarated by the manufacturer.

It would be nice to have something in the air before F-16s are scrambled. But again It seems to me that most people here don't understand how a BVR engagement takes place. Thinking is "It's not a dogfight, the plane doesn't have to be maneuverable" but the reality is, the plane's performance is equally important in both types of engagement.

That's why Loyal Wingman and Okhotnik are jet-powered and absolutely nobody on earth arms a turboprop with a BVR missile. It's like mounting a 120mm gun on Otokar Cobra or trying to mount a VLS on Tuzla class. It's dumb. It's not going to work very well. It will only be useful in the sense that we'll be able to test how to use MIUS in the future.

The best payload for Akıncı will be MAM-T free-falling ammunition.
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,989
Reactions
104 14,390
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Turkish navy has placed an order for Aksungur UAV.
They have transferred some of their Anka orders to Aksungur.
Let us hope others will follow.
1630411765914.jpeg
 

Test7

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,775
Reactions
15 19,850
Nation of residence
United States of America
Nation of origin
Turkey
Alpin company Improved the fuselage design and aerodynamics of the TITRA unmanned helicopter with the experience gained in the first prototype studies. Unmanned helicopter Alpin has been strengthened for military missions, weapons and ammunition integration.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac1.jpg


Dönmez stated that they decided to make some changes in the body design and aerodynamics of the vehicle after their experience in the first prototype works, and stated that they were preparing the vehicle for missions in the defense industry. Dönmez said, "As a result of the flight tests we conducted with our first designs, we have improved the fuselage design for the integrations we will make especially in the defense field, in order to make it look a little fuller and to make the integration of weapons and ammunition more efficient. We also exhibited the first prototype fuselage at IDEF 2021." said.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac3.jpg


Selman Dönmez also stated that negotiations with different defense industry companies, especially on the integration of ammunition and weapons, continue, and that the new hull will provide great advantages for these missions.

AGUSTOS2021%2Fihac2.jpg
thumbs_b_c_668b9c438d9c248a2536f5a046a1d1a3.jpg



 
E

Elaser

Guest
Akinci with with 4 Gokdogan BVR missiles can loiter over a friendly area at A 35k with 13+ hours endurance.
Early gen F-16 with AIM-7 flies towards it needs to turn radar on to detect Akinci.
Gets detected by RWR or by FLIR Akinci turns ECM on F-16 radar jammed.
Akinci locks on F-16 and fires Gokdogan. F-16 either doesn't detect the LPI radar of the Akinci or doesn't get CWI warning because of TWS mode.
F-16 doesn't know whether to continue engagement or disengage. If disengage=mission fail.
If continues on to burn through range of Akinci jammer Gokdogan will hit F-16=mission fail.
If F-16 decides to outmaneuver Gokdogan drops tanks burns a lot of fuel while Akinci has 3 more Gokdogans. Soon F-16 is bingo fuel and is forced to RTB=mission fail

Same is for early M2k/MIG-29/SU-27 etc with non ESA radar and active BVR missiles.

Akinci avionics and technology is one full generation ahead of early 4th gen. Kinematic inferiority is fully compensated by technological superiority...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
L

LegionnairE

Guest
@Elaser
still, don't underestimate AIM-7 and don't underestimate F-16's internal fuel capacity.
If things were that clear cut, we wouldn't need AIM-9s and M61 guns.

When AIM-7 is fired Akıncı will be forced to maneuver and break radar contact too, a competent pilot could force a merge and get a gun kill. It's difficult but possible.
Even such an outdated monkey-model F16 as the Egyptian Block 42s is a credible threat.
 

Anmdt

Experienced member
Naval Specialist
Professional
Messages
5,056
Solutions
2
Reactions
94 22,442
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Akinci with with 4 Gokdogan BVR missiles can loiter over a friendly area at A 35k with 13+ hours endurance.
Early gen F-16 with AIM-7 flies towards it needs to turn radar on to detect Akinci.
Gets detected by RWR or by FLIR Akinci turns ECM on F-16 radar jammed.
Akinci locks on F-16 and fires Gokdogan. F-16 either doesn't detect the LPI radar of the Akinci or doesn't get CWI warning because of TWS mode.
F-16 doesn't know whether to continue engagement or disengage. If disengage=mission fail.
If continues on to burn through range of Akinci jammer Gokdogan will hit F-16=mission fail.
If F-16 decides to outmaneuver Gokdogan drops tanks burns a lot of fuel while Akinci has 3 more Gokdogans. Soon F-16 is bingo fuel and is forced to RTB=mission fail

Same is for early M2k/MIG-29/SU-27 etc with non ESA radar and active BVR missiles.

Akinci avionics and technology is one full generation ahead of early 4th gen. Kinematic inferiority is fully compensated by technological superiority...
Gladly advisors in TurAF is not making such unrealistic, game-like scenarios.

And better you read how 4th gen is defined before making some "expert" statements: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-generation_fighter. The only thing that makes Akıncı on this league, according to you is the AESA radar and yes it is above on capabilities of the 4th gen jets,however this doesn't make it a 4th gen fighter.

It would be nice to have something in the air before F-16s are scrambled. But again It seems to me that most people here don't understand how a BVR engagement takes place. Thinking is "It's not a dogfight, the plane doesn't have to be maneuverable" but the reality is, the plane's performance is equally important in both types of engagement.

That's why Loyal Wingman and Okhotnik are jet-powered and absolutely nobody on earth arms a turboprop with a BVR missile. It's like mounting a 120mm gun on Otokar Cobra or trying to mount a VLS on Tuzla class. It's dumb. It's not going to work very well. It will only be useful in the sense that we'll be able to test how to use MIUS in the future.

The best payload for Akıncı will be MAM-T free-falling ammunition.
Akıncı can hunt other threats like UAVs and helicopters, cheap and low-rank targets for the fighter jets. Who even thinks the enemy will only dispatch manned aircraft in a war?
 

Quasar

Contributor
The Post Deleter
Messages
516
Reactions
25 2,252
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
good point AKINCI may need/will get RWC at some point dont know I belive anything flying with A2A missile needs Radar warning reciver sure it is a vital part of situational awareness.
 
Last edited:
L

LegionnairE

Guest
@Anmdt
I absolutely agree. However, the situation we find ourselves in in Eastern Mediterranean. If this local cold war turns hot, there will be a lot of enemy fighters.

I would much rather test Akıncı in roles such as SEAD for example, carrying AGM-88s than to waste time fvcking around with something knowing the plane is unsuitable for.
I am certain that the navy will be doing more sensible things with Aksungur.

good point AKINCI may need/will get RWC at some point dont know I belive anything flying with A2A missile needs Radar warning reciver sure it is a vital part of situational awareness.

Agreed.
 
E

Elaser

Guest
It is LPI AESA+ELINT/RWR+DRFM ECM+HD resolution FLIR vs slotted planar array radar, semi-active missile and old RWR which Turkey knows everything about.

Early 4th gen will be blinded and outranged in detection by Akinci. Racetrack flying Akinci can detect aircraft at more than 100km with HD FLIR and keep it fixed on F-16 even while turning its back.

It is early 4th gen technology vs 5th gen technology on turboprop aircraft. Akinci while not being a fighter enters a new gray zone. Drones make new rules and soon new classifications. Just like TB2 has done.

Stay with navy stuff, that is your 'specialty'.
 
Top Bottom