TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Test7

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All our assets add +1 to our fighter force
That was what i mean. Maybe Akinci'll target the logistic and attack helicopters while fighter jets fighting. otherwise the air force would have to assign jets for this.. +1 makes a big difference on the battlefield.
 
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LegionnairE

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@LegionnairE @Nutuk Calm down guys.

Warnings were issued and messages were edited.
I swear I do everything in my power for the thread to not get derailed.

Akinci is not fighter killer. It is +1 platform carrying extra AA missiles. While fighting with enemy fighters, enemy also has to deal with Akinci's carrying AA missiles. For this, extra fighter have to be assigned. So they have to divide the fleet while fighting. This mean advantage for Turkish air force.. Even if the akinci shot a helicopter, it'll reduce the air force's work..

What will end up happening is that Akıncı won't be able to evade enemy missiles because it's big and slow, and it will cost the enemy only one AIM-120C or R77 or whatever. And the enemy will lose one missile while we lose an Akıncı so who is losing more money here?

Just wait for MIUS.
 

Abdelaziz

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Akinci will be able to perform a-a engagement against other drones , helos, awacs and too old aircrafts .. but noway it can neutralize 4th gen aircraft and above
 

Test7

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What will end up happening is that Akıncı won't be able to evade enemy missiles because it's big and slow, and it will cost the enemy only one AIM-120C or R77 or whatever. And the enemy will lose one missile while we lose an Akıncı so who is losing more money here?

Just wait for MIUS.

That is my point. WHo knows? Maybe Turkish air force wants this.. Enemy air force will assign much more fighter jets for Akinci. Much more duty for enemy air force.. Think of the Akinci like flies buzzing and disturbing on your nose..
 
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Elaser

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Akinci will be able to perform a-a engagement against other drones , helos, awacs and too old aircrafts .. but noway it can neutralize 4th gen aircraft and above
It can neutralize old MiG-29 and M2k in Libya.

It can take on old Egyptian F-16 which have semi-active AIM-7. They would need to keep Akinci within radar gimbal limit while Akinci fires active guided missiles.
 
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LegionnairE

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That is my point. Maybe Turkish air force want this.. Enemy air force will assign much more fighter jets for Akinci. Much more duty for enemy air force.. Think of the Akinci like flies buzzing and disturbing on your nose..

It's unsustainable, yeah it's cheaper than Reaper but it's still millions of dollars. While an AMRAAM costs 300-400k$ according to wikipedia.

IF I HAD TO do this I would strip away everything from the TB2 and make them carry bozdoğans. While Akıncı stays back with a strong radar. and guides everything.

Akıncı is way too expensive to waste in an AA fight which it can't win.
Those MotorSICH engines aren't free.

@Elaser don't underestimate AIM-7
 

Nutuk

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So much fuss without knowing people think they are expert on everything

Fact is that the longest range kill by AMRAAM missile is from a Turkish F16 at a range of 45km shooting down a Syrian Sukhoi jet


Having AA missiles on Akinci is more than worth trying out. Without trying out "experts" were also claiming why TB2's would be a failure and easy to be shot down.
 
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LegionnairE

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So much fuss without knowing people think they are expert on everything

Fact is that the longest range kill by AMRAAM missile is from a Turkish F16 at a range of 45km shooting down a Syrian Sukhoi jet


Having AA missiles on Akinci is more than worth trying out. Without trying out "experts" were also claiming why TB2's would be a failure and easy to be shot down.

We don't need any experts when we have you Nutuk. Nice strawman there buddy.

I thought about this stuff years ago. Akıncı is not suitable for this, we need MIUS. Seethe
 

Nilgiri

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What will end up happening is that Akıncı won't be able to evade enemy missiles because it's big and slow, and it will cost the enemy only one AIM-120C or R77 or whatever. And the enemy will lose one missile while we lose an Akıncı so who is losing more money here?

The thing is, this can be tested and wargamed by Turkish AirForce....and develop some applicable doctrines to hold close to chest if merit and breakouts are found.

The testing regimen is crucial to its viability....and how algorithms are developed and implemented in the C4I to handle it (given optimisation in unmanned realm)

Worth keeping in mind that a cessna has far superior turning radius to any jet fighter. Slow speed can be a benefit if you develop something specifically based on it and test it out well in larger (high speed) realm.
 
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LegionnairE

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@Nilgiri By all means, if there's a scenario in which Akıncı can be useful in an air war, it should be exploited, but as far as I'm concerned this jet vs prop thing got decided with Me 262.

Your turn radius could be very small but that might not matter if your turn rate is slow as a turtle.
 

Nilgiri

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@Nilgiri By all means, if there's a scenario in which Akıncı can be useful in an air war, it should be exploited, but as far as I'm concerned this jet vs prop thing got decided with Me 262.

Your turn radius could be very small but that might not matter if your turn rate is slow as a turtle.

It depends more on the IR (or other, whatever TR airforce models as most likely in various doctrines) seeker specifics in its terminal phase (i.e its 90%+ kill envelope there) and the missile's max-G capacity (to re-acquire on a final target evasion input). TR Airforce would know these parameters to start exploring from there...

You are right about turn rate playing huge role as well (for getting out of the kill envelope), but there might be something on offer to find given countermeasures mixed into various salvo scenarios where maybe every % counts.

Then you would have to compare those results (with all of that analysed) with the pro's of having more A-A missiles for your general salvo at opposing force etc that having akinci (present among whatever other platforms you plan and have potential) brings to bear....and maybe considering what the opponent has to use to salvo from his end (that might reduce possibility of kill per unit on your end).

That all has to be wargamed out and seen if there is anything to commit to, as there are different optimal flight paths (cascading by each decision,.... likely needing monte carlo analysis, or some regimen of sound nonlinear analysis able to handle real data input well).

I suppose it depends how many and how long TR airforce has akinci (i.e total investment and number bulk) to explore its use past conventional....or even how to best make do with say a non-favourable engagement situation.

I agree MIUS offers far more options intrinsically...as its dedicated role and envelope to the nature of this.
 

Siper>MMU

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Akıncı's A2A weapons are not meant for shooting down every single jet. Best targets are Su-25, Su-24 like Cold War Era subsonic jets. Maybe even supersonic jets lacking BVR capabilities, Mig 21 or Early Mig 29s.

Doesn't need to shot down every target. Sometimes you launch a missile to make enemy retreat.

In my opinion, SAGE should make a booster for Gökdoğan to use with Akıncı. Akıncı doesn't have any maneuvrability problem like a F-16 when it is loaded.
 

Zafer

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Now that we are maturing the TS1400 and we have mastered that power range, what if we make a turboprop from it and equip an Akıncı Block 2 with it? like 2x1500 hp. It can give in excess of 3 tons of payload for 15 hours at 500km/h speed or so. It would sport an indigenous rating of around 95% and be the largest subsonic UCAV flying. The fact that BSS Company are developing the 750hp engine makes this plan only the backup plan in case things change course with the BSS Company.
 
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Elaser

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F-16 with old AN/APG-66-68, AIM-7, RWR and ECM which Turkey knows everything about vs new and unknown LPI AESA+Gokdogan II/Gokhan and brand new SIGINT/ECM. Old F-16 won't know what hit it. Old M2k and Mig-29 would know even less.

Akinci with 750hp engines, AESA, Gokdogan, Gokhan, SIGINT and EW will be very difficult to take down by old weapons and sensors known to Turkey.

Don't overestimate the AIM-7.
 

Trakya_forever

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I think we are going to use 2*750 hp variants for A2A missions. Not bad idea. Flying SAM battaries with longer ranges. We can use all domestic missiles for Akıncı in time. Booster + Gökdoğan, maybe Hisar RF. If we can place them in the network centric warfare it will be revolutionary. For sure it's a step for MIUS. Real game changer will be MIUS.
 
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Quasar

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AKINCI with A2A missiles is there for opportunity kills for instance enemy helicopters with NLOS type missiles who knows, not only this but I belive AKINCI with AESA and a few A2A missile at the vicinity of a maned Turkish fighter almost certainly provides tactical advantages or opportunities for our pilot, eventhoug AKINCI can not keep up with jet fighters, anything is possible. MIUS is totaly a diffrent beast. Yet we have plans for unmaned SOJ & unmaned AEW-C , supersonic decoys, this should be another clear indication that unmaned fleet will be operating with our maned fighters
 
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Anmdt

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@Nilgiri By all means, if there's a scenario in which Akıncı can be useful in an air war, it should be exploited, but as far as I'm concerned this jet vs prop thing got decided with Me 262.

Your turn radius could be very small but that might not matter if your turn rate is slow as a turtle.
These won't be particularly used in direct A2A engagement but Akincis will left out in patrol duties in gangs, they can loiter much longer than F-16s. Moreover it is already revealed they are developing a new AA missile to be fired from drones.

I would personally wait until TAF fits these kind of platforms into their doctrine. Nobody would expect smart munition+UAV combo would be this effective in a full war until TAF adopted them into their style.
For this reason i will not look how the manufacturer is bragging, i will look at how TAF will be using those and i am sure the latter will be much more effective than what is exaggarated by the manufacturer.
 

Combat-Master

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F-16 with old AN/APG-66-68, AIM-7, RWR and ECM which Turkey knows everything about vs new and unknown LPI AESA+Gokdogan II/Gokhan and brand new SIGINT/ECM. Old F-16 won't know what hit it. Old M2k and Mig-29 would know even less.

Akinci with 750hp engines, AESA, Gokdogan, Gokhan, SIGINT and EW will be very difficult to take down by old weapons and sensors known to Turkey.

Don't overestimate the AIM-7.

If things flair up in Libya again, I think we will see another first from Turkey. An Akinci equipped with Turkish AESA radar and Turkish BVR Missiles downing Su-24s and Mig-29s.

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Looking at the detection ranges, Akinci trumps both planes. If we believe what Aselsan's representative said, in that their AESA radar is equivalent to AN/APG-83.

That's a detection range of 370km, compared to 300km of Su-24 or 260km of Mig-29.
 
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Nutuk

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People are quick to dismiss certain warfare option cos in their mind they look up to the US and think: the US is using it this way, this is the best and everything else is not worth to even try out.

We have seen all those fortunetellers who predicted that TB2 was no match against modern air defense systems, they are all mum now.

Now we have fortunetellers predicting that AA weaponized drones have no chance against manned fighters. They even make discussions about it, declare everyone who oppose their closed mind as idiot who know nothing (cos they are the expert!).

What do we have to lose? Try out AA weapons on drones, if it doesn't work out good go back to using it as bomber. But if it works out we change again the rules of warfare!
 
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Turko

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My humble opinion about UAV's with BVR A2A missiles is that If the UAVs are operational where there is no Air defence support, UAVs should be armed with BVR A2A missiles.

İmagine we will have TCG Trakya with Bayraktar TB3s. Without long range SAMs and f-16 supports, how could the ship will be safe in the Mediterranean sea.
İt would be great to arm TB-3s with Gökhan ramjet missiles for naval areal Air defence.

Under any circumstances it would reduce risks.
 

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