TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Ripley

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I agree that a 30mm cannon on any aircraft would make it a natural candidate for CAS operations but why would you deviate KE from its main purpose while there are other cost effective UAV solutions in your inventory with precision kill capabilities from specific altitudes on any soft target without risking the platform itself.

Somehow, I’m inclined to believe that the cannon is intended for close quarter A2A engagements.
 

boredaf

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I agree that a 30mm cannon on any aircraft would make it a natural candidate for CAS operations but why would you deviate KE from its main purpose while there are other cost effective UAV solutions in your inventory with precision kill capabilities from specific altitudes on any soft target without risking the platform itself.

Somehow, I’m inclined to believe that the cannon is intended for close quarter A2A engagements.
I completely agree. Even Roketsan's 40mm miniature laser guided missile fired from a small drone 1 km away would be a safer bet at engaging soft targets instead of risking a platform like KE.
 
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UkroTurk

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But f-22 and F-35 both have autocannons while they are not less cheaper than KE.

Moreover KE will be able to kill other Unmanned Fighters or Bombers with very low price.
 

TheInsider

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FutmP-KWYAQ3kZx


Surprise. Sonobuoy, multi-function AESA radar, air-to-air missile capability.
 

demir283

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I completely agree. Even Roketsan's 40mm miniature laser guided missile fired from 1 km away a small drone would be a safer bet at engaging soft targets instead of risking a platform like KE.
according to KE roles: offensives, close air support (CAS), missile offensives, suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD) and destruction of enemy air defenses (DEAD). so having 30x113 is more likely KE version of A-10 Thunderbolt II . i would like to see brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr KE
 

Zafer

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With AESA radar and A2A missile capability Bayraktar TB3 becomes a fighter drone, if it can offer a similar RCS to the TB2 no enemy is safe anymore. With the capability to be powered with more powerful TEI engines it even has room to grow.

"We can fight !"

Also 141 HP indicates a Rotax engine option.
 
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Era_shield

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I agree that a 30mm cannon on any aircraft would make it a natural candidate for CAS operations but why would you deviate KE from its main purpose while there are other cost effective UAV solutions in your inventory with precision kill capabilities from specific altitudes on any soft target without risking the platform itself.

Somehow, I’m inclined to believe that the cannon is intended for close quarter A2A engagements.
You could be right however it would mean Canik is developing a multi-barrel A2A gun, because the single-barrel low recoil one we saw is just not suitable for dogfighting, even ignoring the caliber.

One possibility for wanting to use KE for CAS is that 1. It's stealthy and thus could survive in contested airspace where other drones could not 2. The AI would be able to fire that gun with superhuman accuracy, making it much cheaper than using guided munitions. It would also have a powerful psychological effect, like an A-10 but turbocharged by AI and it never misses.
 

boredaf

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according to KE roles: offensives, close air support (CAS), missile offensives, suppression of enemy air defenses (SEAD) and destruction of enemy air defenses (DEAD). so having 30x113 is more likely KE version of A-10 Thunderbolt II . i would like to see brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr KE
I wouldn't, because the last time A-10 was used in a war it suffered the highest losses, that is why US doesn't even use them anymore. It would be a real waste of time and resources to build a KE just to risk it like that when CAS missions can be completed much more safely with KE and other drones by using rockets/missiles.
 

uçuyorum

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I wouldn't, because the last time A-10 was used in a war it suffered the highest losses, that is why US doesn't even use them anymore. It would be a real waste of time and resources to build a KE just to risk it like that when CAS missions can be completed much more safely with KE and other drones by using rockets/missiles.
But KE has the advantage of being a cheaper unmanned platform it wouldn't have the upkeep costs and such of warthog and its loss wouldn't be devastating
 

boredaf

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But KE has the advantage of being a cheaper unmanned platform it wouldn't have the upkeep costs and such of warthog and its loss wouldn't be devastating
I'm not so sure about that, how many of these in a year can Baykar make? We are not going to have fleet of KE for years and even then, it'll be some time before Baykar even start producing the 2 engine version which'll be the ultimate version of KE.

Using a drone that'd be most effective in A2A or DEAD/SEAD missions for CAS with a 30mm gun would be genuinely idiotic imo. We have a lot of drones that can cover CAS missions and a big variety of munitions for them to do so, no need to risk a KE when you can do the same job better with a TB2 or some other drone.
 
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Era_shield

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I wouldn't, because the last time A-10 was used in a war it suffered the highest losses, that is why US doesn't even use them anymore. It would be a real waste of time and resources to build a KE just to risk it like that when CAS missions can be completed much more safely with KE and other drones by using rockets/missiles.
Unlike the A-10, the KE could fire from 2km up or more, due to its superhuman accuracy. It would not fire tracers either, so the enemy would've even know what was happening. Unlike the A-10 it's stealthy so it could remain undetected by radar too. And unlike using rockets/missiles, a KE fully loaded with 30mm could loiter for 6 hours, attacking dozens of times without the need to return to base and reload. And of course it's much cheaper. A KE doing CAS would be an absolute nightmare for the enemy.
 

boredaf

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Unlike the A-10, the KE could fire from 2km up or more, due to its superhuman accuracy. It would not fire tracers either, so the enemy would've even know what was happening. Unlike the A-10 it's stealthy so it could remain undetected by radar too. And unlike using rockets/missiles, a KE fully loaded with 30mm could loiter for 6 hours, attacking dozens of times without the need to return to base and reload. And of course it's much cheaper. A KE doing CAS would be an absolute nightmare for the enemy.
All of this is speculation about what KE can do and nothing more, and the cold hard fact is, in an era where every country is investing in shoulder fired aa systems getting KE as close as 2 kms to any enemy other than some cave dweller with an AK is just a waste. It won't be Wonder Woman's invisible jet, it'll just be harder to detect.
 

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Ok. But just imagine Ukraine having something like 3,000 TB2 and 1,200 Anka 1 and 600 Aksungur playing different roles. will any power be able even to mass troops on border to Attack it and if they Attack what will survive from this Army? Numbers are important and how much space you can be patrolling and how many you can afford to lose in first months of War is very important.
Baykar alone is able to produce 500 tb2 a year, Turkey doesnt want to be like USSR, when it spends all its money for army technology instead f developing the technology.
to give you an example, they have produced almost 20.000 tanks thinking nobody can do anything once they have it, guess what, later Nato coud penetrate it using 30mm gun or even TB2 is good example as how easy targets they were..
I agree that Turkey needs to order as many anka3 and KE as possible, however, there is a navy waiting for ships, which Turkey produce 3 ships at the same time, there is Altay Tank need 100 order a year which this alone could be 1 billion $ a year and so on,
I think Turkey does the right one, export as many as you can and that way push up the production. it might reveal some tech but there are so much new tech out there that once you are the fronter, you can just keep that trend.
if Turkey sells Akinji to Egypt, it means there is something going on on politics side, as SA and UAE also improve its relations with Turkey, they also understand that Turkey could heart them a lot, may be RTE doesnt do anything now as looking at them a muslim brother, but a new government could turn it to hell.
just imagine that a single Iranian drone made Saudi Arabia loose its 25% exports. any oil producing country is a glass door that you can hurt them a lot. Thats why when Iran act like it will attack Azerbaijan, its just funny to me.
 

dBSPL

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The reason why I am surprised by the 30mm cannon integration target is not issues such as CAS or anti UAV. Let's take a longer perspective:

A twin-engined KE variant with afterburners may promise capabilities in terms of air combat manoeuvring that exceed those of current fighter jets. Within the limits of structural strength, which today's component&aircraft technology is advancing ahead of the physiological limits of the human factor in the cockpit, maneuvering speed and aggressive manoeuvring envelope can perhaps exceed 11G. For example, todays 9G rated aircraft are generally suitable approximately 50 per cent more of this. When you remove the human factor, it is possible to utilise the structural limits to the fullest.

Now let's take an up-to-date fighter aircraft. Despite any kind of disadvantageous start, you are developing a jet that will enable it to take the advantageous position even in any ACM scenario, against these manned fighter jets. Perhaps in an environment of flat geography and mutual high AD capability, and given the advances in long-range engagement, you might think that dogfights would be a thing of the past, but in practice, will they really be? KE is neither a CAS aircraft nor an anti-UAV system. KE will be a real unmanned interceptor and fighter jet killer that can take off from any asphalt road 10 metres wide. Take it from me.
 
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Era_shield

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All of this is speculation about what KE can do and nothing more, and the cold hard fact is, in an era where every country is investing in shoulder fired aa systems getting KE as close as 2 kms to any enemy other than some cave dweller with an AK is just a waste. It won't be Wonder Woman's invisible jet, it'll just be harder to detect.
No, it's based on the abilities already demonstrated by AI pilots. You can find some videos about this earlier in the thread. Also, a stealthy plane swooping down to 2km for a few seconds to do a gun run is relatively low risk, especially if KE has superhuman juking capability, which it likely will.
 

UkroTurk

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Guys please don't forget 30x133mm cal is enough large to be programmed.
İmagine KE' Lasermeter calculates distance and shoots 30mm smart ammunition with timefuse.

Like flying Korkut CIWS...

On the other hand airburst ammunition is very effective against hidden troops in trenches.

I think we will see more types of 30mm guns in Turkish Army. 30x113mm will be popular.
 

hawk21

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Some pretty obvious observations:
  1. Any cannon on the Kizilelma will have same role as the cannon on a F-22. It will be used as a dogfight weapon when Kizilelma has run out of missiles.
  2. A cannon is also a significantly cost-effective way of shooting down other drones, loitering munitions, cruise missiles etc.
  3. A cannon would, depending on how much ammo is carried, allow the Kizilelma to engage many more (10+) aerial targets compared to a maximum 4-6 targets with AAMs.
  4. In the A2A role, a 20mm cannon shell has higher velocity and therefore greater accuracy (due to a flatter trajectory) than 30mm shells, which have more explosive power/armor penetration and are therefore more suited for an A2G role.
  5. A 20mm cannon would also be able to carry more ammo in the same volume, and 20mm ammo also weighs less.
 

Ripley

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No, it's based on the abilities already demonstrated by AI pilots. You can find some videos about this earlier in the thread. Also, a stealthy plane swooping down to 2km for a few seconds to do a gun run is relatively low risk, especially if KE has superhuman juking capability, which it likely will.
You make a good point here however as you illustrate it, swooping down to 2km or so means it will have to leave its safe zone up there, diminish its low RCS and radar signatures advantages only to be visible to the naked eye and plunge into, perhaps a “SAM Valley” or perhaps a carefully and densely located MANPADS zone.
Either case would end with the loss of the aircraft.
Also, even if we suppose a KE doing a strafe run from 2km above the intended target, its effectiveness would be dismal at best. Even with the programmed ammo from an auto cannon.
There are other “expandable“ platforms and will be more in TSK inventory for such missions.
 

Olaf

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Guys please don't forget 30x133mm cal is enough large to be programmed.
İmagine KE' Lasermeter calculates distance and shoots 30mm smart ammunition with timefuse.

Like flying Korkut CIWS...

On the other hand airburst ammunition is very effective against hidden troops in trenches.

I think we will see more types of 30mm guns in Turkish Army. 30x113mm will be popular.
In this way can it take out less speedy cruise missiles? Like airborne air defence system?
 

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