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[hugh]

Italian Minister of Industry: “BayKar and Leonardo could form partnership to be leader of the sector in the EU.”

BayKar may team up with Leonardo after buying Piaggio-Urso - Business - Ansa.it

Turkey's drone and AI group BayKar may team up with Italian defence giant Leonardo after buying Piaggio Aerospace, Industry and Made in Italy Minister Adolfo Urso said Thursday. (ANSA)

www.ansa.it

Baykar is already the leader in the world.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Baykar is already the leader in the world.

I am afraid, that is a short sighted and nationalistic view and approach.
You can’t be a world leader of UAVs and UCAVs if you don’t have :
1. unrestricted access to turboshaft and turbofan engines and
2. unrestricted access to markets you can sell to.

What Baykar has accomplished is extraordinary. With all the restrictions Türkiye has been subjected to, they made this country and Baykar the number one in UAV and UCAV sales.
But to achieve “continuation of success” and going forward to become “true” world leaders, they need those unrestricted avenues to be open to them.
That is what the Italian minister is trying to convey.

A marriage made in heaven!

 

[Oublious]

they have reached 102...

 

[hugh]

I am afraid, that is a short sighted and nationalistic view and approach.
You can’t be a world leader of UAVs and UCAVs if you don’t have :
1. unrestricted access to turboshaft and turbofan engines and
2. unrestricted access to markets you can sell to.

What Baykar has accomplished is extraordinary. With all the restrictions Türkiye has been subjected to, they made this country and Baykar the number one in UAV and UCAV sales.
But to achieve “continuation of success” and going forward to become “true” world leaders, they need those unrestricted avenues to be open to them.
That is what the Italian minister is trying to convey.

A marriage made in heaven!

We're on the same page. I wasn't suggesting that Baykar should shy away from this proposition.

Baykar's core tech is nowhere near that of Leonardo's and they could benefit from this symbiosis immensely.

My jab was at the suggestion of becoming the leader of Europe in drone business. That is such a low bar that Baykar has already well-past.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Baykar is already the leader in the world.

Baykar is not World leader, the Americans are still at least 1-2 levels above us in Sensors, Radar/SAR, Composite Material, RAM and Turboprob or Jet based Engines alone.

While the drone program in Turkey was still a feasibility study in the 90s, they already had the MQ1 Predator Drone.

 

[Yasar_TR]

We're on the same page. I wasn't suggesting that Baykar should shy away from this proposition.

Baykar's core tech is nowhere near that of Leonardo's and they could benefit from this symbiosis immensely.

My jab was at the suggestion of becoming the leader of Europe in drone business. That is such a low bar that Baykar has already well-past.

OK! Noted.

But if you read the article again and what the minister is saying, you will see that he is talking about “consolidating their leadership in Europe” regarding aerospace by marrying Leonardo with a similar company. It has nothing to do with Baykar’s leadership and Baykar’s purchase of Piaggio. He is giving it as an example of a good move.

In a way he is almost correct, as Leonardo they are like BAE Systems. Multi national and versatile. By selling Leonardo and marrying it with a correct partner, they will want to keep their competitive edge in Europe.

However, Leonardo is a 15.3 billion Euro turnover company, employing over 53 thousand people. They have an order book of nearly 40billion Euros.
So they are actually half the size of BAE Systems with respect to number of employees, order book and turnover.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

OK! Noted.

But if you read the article again and what the minister is saying, you will see that he is talking about “consolidating their leadership in Europe” regarding aerospace by marrying Leonardo with a similar company. It has nothing to do with Baykar’s leadership and Baykar’s purchase of Piaggio. He is giving it as an example of a good move.

In a way he is almost correct, as Leonardo they are like BAE Systems. Multi national and versatile. By selling Leonardo and marrying it with a correct partner, they will want to keep their competitive edge in Europe.

However, Leonardo is a 15.3 billion Euro turnover company, employing over 53 thousand people. They have an order book of nearly 40billion Euros.
So they are actually half the size of BAE Systems with respect to number of employees, order book and turnover.

Could you explain please what this buyout means for Baykar in terms of improvement of the drones? What kind of change can we expect?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Could you explain please what this buyout means for Baykar in terms of improvement of the drones? What kind of change can we expect?

First we need to look at why Baykar bought Piaggio.

This can be discussed from two different angles: optimistic angle and pessimistic angle.

Let us look at the pessimistic angle first:

First of all Baykar is a private concern and has to make sure that it‘s future is secured. It has at the moment, a lot of clout and say when it comes to tenders and it has a solid support that it can lean back to with many state owned companies watching it’s back, be it with technical help or parts or know how cross fertilisation or staff resource.
They are not sure this will carry on , post 2028.
On the side of being correct, a company like Baykar should not be pushed aside no matter what political situation the country is leaning towards. If we are patriots, and our governments are patriots too, then that is what is expected. Baykar is a gem that needs to be pampered. At the same time there should be no favouritism.

As a private concern they can see that they want to move forward at a good decent pace with new technologies. Unfortunately the companies and the concerns they need to have on their side are either working too slow for their taste or they were too late in investing in required technologies due to politics and and bureaucracy.
If we were to give a couple examples: We don’t know when they can have a locally produced turbofan. We haven’t even started on a turboprop. It took a presidential push to get a working flir after Canadian embargo.
So from a pessimistic angle, there are necessities that urged Baykar to search for a secure future.

From an optimistic angle:

Baykar is a giant in its field. But any large company has to innovate and diversify, to become larger and stronger. Best way to do that is to become a multinational. In a way, Baykar has taken the first steps towards that now.
It has ambitions to become involved in space exploration. It wants to be involved in air engine manufacturing. These are time consuming and resource depleting ventures. By buying Piaggio, it is bypassing some of the difficulties of rediscovering America again.

It may not be all plain sailing though.
In order to make Piaggio sellable the Italian government pumped a lot of cash and orders to keep it afloat. Unless Baykar has not added an addendum to their purchase agreement for continuation of government support and right of first refusal in certain critical tenders, the road ahead can be bumpy.

Part of Piaggio is like a small TEI. They are producing parts for the Pratt & Whitney’s F135 engine. So with regards to new engine development they won’t have to spend a lot. In fact as a European entity, it has more access to engine parts than TEI.
As a factory in European Union, it can sell much more easily to EU member states.
Piaggio has a hand in business aircraft production. This is an area that will be worth developing.
UAV production is still new to Europeans. Baykar can easily exploit this virgin market. Piaggio poured in a lot cash for UAVs. So a lot of hard work has already been done.

 

[boredaf]

Piaggio has a hand in business aircraft production. This is an area that will be worth developing.

Their Avanti Evo is also being used as a patrol plane by Italy and few others, I think, even though it is not that big. We might be able to find a similar use for it as well.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

First we need to look at why Baykar bought Piaggio.

This can be discussed from two different angles: optimistic angle and pessimistic angle.

Let us look at the pessimistic angle first:

First of all Baykar is a private concern and has to make sure that it‘s future is secured. It has at the moment, a lot of clout and say when it comes to tenders and it has a solid support that it can lean back to with many state owned companies watching it’s back, be it with technical help or parts or know how cross fertilisation or staff resource.
They are not sure this will carry on , post 2028.
On the side of being correct, a company like Baykar should not be pushed aside no matter what political situation the country is leaning towards. If we are patriots, and our governments are patriots too, then that is what is expected. Baykar is a gem that needs to be pampered. At the same time there should be no favouritism.

As a private concern they can see that they want to move forward at a good decent pace with new technologies. Unfortunately the companies and the concerns they need to have on their side are either working too slow for their taste or they were too late in investing in required technologies due to politics and and bureaucracy.
If we were to give a couple examples: We don’t know when they can have a locally produced turbofan. We haven’t even started on a turboprop. It took a presidential push to get a working flir after Canadian embargo.
So from a pessimistic angle, there are necessities that urged Baykar to search for a secure future.

From an optimistic angle:

Baykar is a giant in its field. But any large company has to innovate and diversify, to become larger and stronger. Best way to do that is to become a multinational. In a way, Baykar has taken the first steps towards that now.
It has ambitions to become involved in space exploration. It wants to be involved in air engine manufacturing. These are time consuming and resource depleting ventures. By buying Piaggio, it is bypassing some of the difficulties of rediscovering America again.

It may not be all plain sailing though.
In order to make Piaggio sellable the Italian government pumped a lot of cash and orders to keep it afloat. Unless Baykar has not added an addendum to their purchase agreement for continuation of government support and right of first refusal in certain critical tenders, the road ahead can be bumpy.

Part of Piaggio is like a small TEI. They are producing parts for the Pratt & Whitney’s F135 engine. So with regards to new engine development they won’t have to spend a lot. In fact as a European entity, it has more access to engine parts than TEI.
As a factory in European Union, it can sell much more easily to EU member states.
Piaggio has a hand in business aircraft production. This is an area that will be worth developing.
UAV production is still new to Europeans. Baykar can easily exploit this virgin market. Piaggio poured in a lot cash for UAVs. So a lot of hard work has already been done.

Thank you for putting in the effort to answer my question.

 

[Oublious]

Baykar DIHA drone, 115km range for that kind drone is superb.